BIONICLE G1 Canon Contests Discussion & Questions

Many people who voted for Hoseryx did so to protest the contests being held at all; not every person, but certainly a large number as shown by numerous posts across various different social media sites and discords. A vocal minority trying to rally support from people barely even involved in the BIONICLE community proper in order to sabotage something they disagreed with. Following that, people vote for Double’s because they want a legitimate entry to win; common voting practices detail that being the case, and it has always been the case in BIONICLE community polls, even as far back as BZPower. Hoseryx isn’t the only “meme entry” to ever make it into the final polls of community contests, and even aside from the meme angle of things, people do sometimes vote for things they’re not necessarily crazy about to stop something they would prefer much less from being victorious. That’s a common failing of the voting system, and someone we’ve addressed with a much superior system in the artwork contest.

My point is though: You’re using a movement at least partially spearheaded by people who want the contests to stop, a movement you PERSONALLY are irritated by because it contributed to an entry you don’t like to win) as evidence for why the contests were mismanaged and should stop. That’s circular logic, and I don’t buy into it one bit. Improvements have been and should continue to be made to the formula to prevent issues in the future where we can, we shouldn’t give up wholesale.

Additionally, the Makuta thing… isn’t remotely confusing to anyone familiar with the material at all, and no Makuta-esque MoCs made it super high in the voting processes. The quote was included as part of the full scope of description we provided for Helryx, and the full context is available to anyone who is a BIONICLE fan; as such, if they’re interested enough to enter this contest, they know who Helryx is, and can go read the full scope of her appearance for themselves (heck, they probably already HAVE read the story serial and so know the context for why that Makuta bit is in there!). Only a handful of MoCs even had Makuta-esque imagery, one made by @Connor_Hoffman which had been worked on as early as 2018 as part of his own separate AU project and as such, wasn’t related to the quote being taken out of context at all. I don’t think a lack of clarity on our part played any role in the contest or created any problems whatsoever regarding this Makuta bit.

Regarding including MoC contests and art contests; that is a key cornerstone of this entire initiative, the entire premise. Being inclusive. BIONICLE is a LEGO property, and LEGO is the centerpiece of its very existence and that of the community formed around it.

To deny MoCists the opportunity to create and be a part of this because of… what? Some desire for simplicity? One contest being easier to follow than two per character? That’s not worth it to me. I’ve seen arguments about separating the custom mask from the character art portion, and I’m willing to entertain those on a conceptual level, because there are arguments for-and-against. Eradicating MoCs entirely though? Forcing everyone to either learn to draw or get out? No thanks. I have zero interest in disregarding the majority of BIONICLE fans and prohibiting them from contributing in any way except artwork because of a misguided attempt to make something easy-to-follow even easier.

Additionally, I’m not opposed to the concept of a survey, but I do take great umbrage with the notion that people “should be allowed to have a say.” They already have, man. We conducted the poll about these contests for weeks, and even though the winning majority was massive, there were a lot of dissenters and people who objected. If after every roadblock, every subjective failing, every “entry winning that ____ person doesn’t want to win,” every minor, personal gripe that someone may have towards the process, we reopened the polls to give those same people an opportunity to raise the same objections that have already been addressed time and time again… we’d never get anything done.

I didn’t like the winner? Time to call for another vote. People in the community being trolls? Revote. Vote brigading? Revote. Take issue with a rule? Time for a revote. Don’t think Greg should have the power to canonize things? Revote. Didn’t like the contests in the first place but want to use peoples’ subjective issues to cast doubt on them and hope public opinion swings towards the negative? Well we GOTTA have a revote.

I’m not saying your grievances aren’t legitimate (there were tons of issues with the MoC portion, and I look forward to digging into all of them in a Nak & Jay on Wednesday), but I just feel it’s a slippery slope. Again, I’m not against a survey to gauge current feelings in a post-Helryx atmosphere, but I do feel that the community has spoken quite clearly about their views on these contests, and the wealth of participation and creativity displayed throughout the Helryx portion has more than proved their potential and the success of the whole initiative.

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@Eljay I have a question about 8a that may seem somewhat arbitrary, but I feel like it has some precedent. The 2002 Tahu Nuva’s flame swords (Part 44035) were cut and used on one of the fan-designed Dark Hunters in the DH book. Said Dark Hunter is named “Charger,” and his version of the flame blades have the flames cut off. Would these modified blades be acceptable for this contest because of their previous usage in a canon character?

And for 8c, this may have been answered, but are capes that we’ve made inappropriate?

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Keep it up Eljay! I think the contests are great and they add a lot to Bionicle. I appreciate all you do and i’m excited to see the next contests

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(Massive brownie points for people who recognize this :stuck_out_tongue:)

But in all seriousness, looking forward to hearing your postmortem (for want of a less negative term :stuck_out_tongue:) on the Helryx contest. I’ve been craving a new Nak & Jay for a while now.

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That is true and you have a point here. But at the same time, they weren’t the only ones that were rallying votes for Hoseryx. Many did so either to spite on TTV, make fun of Eljay, or simply for the meme. This led to a fight between only two contestants in the final poll. There were people rallying others to vote for Hoseryx because “quick, Hoseryx dropped to the 2nd place, we gotta get more votes so she can win!”, then in the opposite camp there were people rallying votes for Double’s moc because they wanted to prevent Hoseryx from winning, leaving all other contestants way behind.

I am 100% sure there were people who voted for either of these two because the legitimately thought those were the best depictions of the character. But I doubt that if everybody voted for the entry they legitimately thought was the best, not for the one that could beat the one they didn’t want to win, the results would have been the same.

I don’t have a problem with Double’s moc winning. It wasn’t my favourite, but there are many things that ended up canon that I don’t like. And I’m fine with that. It’s not about which entry won, but how it won. I understand there’s a lot going on behind the scenes that we don’t know about, but from an outsider point of view it looked like you were given all the evidence for vote brigading and even bribing people to vote for Hoseryx, and all you did was say “well, yeah, we know about that but eh, what can you do? ¯\(ツ)/¯”. Like in the meme where the whole house is on fire and the dog just sits there and thinks “this is fine”.

I am glad you changed the voting system for the art portion, I really am and kudos to you for that, but for me and many others it was just too little too late. What was preventing you from implementing the new way of voting in the final poll of the moc portion? That’s not when the rallying of Hoseryx voters began, it started way earlier, so you had the time to take all the steps necessary to prevent that from happening the second time. All you did was implement this “you need to be on the site for 30 minutes before voting” limit, and while I’m glad you at least did that, it didn’t really change much in the end.

About the Makuta thing - I think you greatly overestimate the fans’ knowledge of the lore here. Keep in mind that the books were never released worldwide. Many countries never got them. I personally have never read any of them in full, my knowledge only comes from the wiki and the activity books with very scarce lore information, because that was the only source of lore we had at the time. And I’m not the only one. And while I know the context of the scene from which the quote comes from, many people don’t - and it shows. Not only in the moc portion, but in the art portion as well. There were many people voting for a particular entry because “in this one Helryx looks like a villain as she should, because Takanuva mistook her for a Makuta that one time”. It’s clear that the quote you provided caused some confusion - a confusion that could have been simply prevented if you only provided any sort of clarification, or just simply cut that Makuta part out. But you didn’t, and that’s the issue I have - how the canon content describing Helryx’s appearance was provided.

And it’s those little issues with how the contest was organized that make me sceptical towards the future ones. If you didn’t provide any clarification for the canon descriptions now, how can I know that you will do so in the future? So there won’t be any blue and green Lariska mocs instead of teal ones, or green and gray Artakha mocs instead of sand green ones? If you assume that most people know how these characters are supposed to look like, then I can assure you, many of them don’t.

About there being a moc contest and an art contest - please, again, read what I wrote. I never said that you should completely abolish the moc portion. It’s just that I don’t think it’s needed for every contest. Especially in its current form - if there was a moc portion, then a mask portion, and then an art portion (as I originally thought it’s going to be), that would make much more sense. As of now, seeing how things are, I think the moc contest is kinda pointless and there isn’t really a reason for it being there other than you wanting to allow more people to participate. A noble attitude, true, but that wasn’t an issue with previous canon contests for Nikila/Surel/Kirbold, so I don’t really see a reason for why should it be now.

Well, yeah I guess they have I say, I mean, obviously, but some people may not want to take part in the comment discussion, and would rather voice their opinion through a simple “yes or no” survey. I’m glad you’re not opposing the survey idea - from the way Eljay wrote in his post it seemed like you are (or at least he is). I’m glad that’s not the case.

And finally, again, I’m not saying that I want these contests to end. I’m just saying that I wouldn’t mind them ending, but I also wouldn’t mind them continuing (if they were to be better organized, that is). I have huge respect for the whole TTV staff for what they’ve done and are doing, and I know and understand that holding these contests is no easy task. But mistakes have been made and, in my opinion at least, there’s nothing wrong with taking a moment to stop and think whether we should continue or not.

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I don’t see the purpose in expecting this right-off-the-bat perfection from things in life. It’s just unrealistic.

Literally knowledge. We did not learn until late that certain aspects of the poll code could be made to do certain things, and we also wanted to conduct some testing.

You have absolutely no idea how much that helped. Of all of our changes, I would say that one helped us internally the most.

If you take issue with us providing full quotes to help illustrate the appearance of characters, I can promise you that won’t change. I am so sick of and fed up with people trying to get us to wrangle people into entering creations or voting for creations based on their preferences. Someone enters a Helryx that is evil-like? Fine. Someone votes for it for the same reason? Fine. You don’t like it? Vote for something else.

I am absolutely through entertaining arguments that come from a place of irritation because they didn’t get what they wanted. You’re not interested in the result that most can agree with - just the result you can agree with.

We don’t assume that people know how these characters are supposed to look. That’s… the point of the contests. To give them an appearance… so people don’t have to assume.

-sigh-

I’m done engaging in this here. Looking forward to Nak & Jay this Wednesday.

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You’re literally missing my point. I don’t have an issue with you providing a full quote to help illustrate how Helryx’s supposed to look like - I’m glad you do, congrats for that. And I don’t have any issue with there being entries that made Helryx look like a Makuta - if that’s the artist’s interpretation, fine. But many people who either submitted these entries or voted for them did so because they thought that’s how Helryx is supposed to look like. That her resembling a Makuta is a requirement. All because of the quote you provided, which was, again, taken out of context and you provided no clarification. That’s the problem I have here. You assumed people would have known the context of the scene, which was a false assumption, which leads to my next point.

Not the point I was making. Meso said he/you assumed people know the context of the quote. They don’t. So what’s stopping you from assuming that people know that, say, Lariska isn’t supposed to be blue and green, a common misconception, but teal? Many people don’t know that, and you can see that by how many blue and green Lariska mocs there are out there. I hope you will provide a clarification for such cases in the future, but seeing how you didn’t do that in this contest, I’m just voicing my concern.

My bad, I didn’t catch that, I was reading that post at 1 am, must have missed that part. Sorry.

Yeah sure whatever, expected as much.

I agree.

Implying they’d be anymore successful than those who brigaded for Hoseryx?

I am one such person. I’d like to have a chance to correct my outdated stance on the issue.

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Just when I think I’m out, they pull me back in.

We assumed people could read “not Makuta” and “Toa Helryx.” Clearly, we shouldn’t have made that mistake.

Let’s take a quick look at the context for the quote:

A figure moved toward Takanuva in the dim light. For reasons he couldn’t name, the Toa’s first thought was that it was Makuta, come for revenge. But a minor use of his power illuminated the room and revealed the being drawing closer. She was not Makuta, but she was indescribably ancient and disturbingly frail in appearance. Her mask and armor were pitted and scarred from a thousand battles. She looked like a Toa, but her armor and mask design didn’t resemble anything Takanuva had ever seen before.

So we’ve gone from “Not Makuta” to “Not Makuta.” All I’m gleaming from what you’re saying is that we should’ve spelled out in big bold letters

Hey everyone, just in case you forgot, she isn’t a Makuta. Definitely Toa Helryx. Not Makuta Helryx. Noooot a Makuta. No Makuta here. Maybe over at the Brotherhood of Makuta, but not here, because Takanuva said not a Makuta. One more time, not a Makuta.

I can’t help the reasons behind why people submit their creations. We shouldn’t have to clarify that Toa Helryx isn’t a Makuta. What do you need to know about Helryx that was not specified in the topic? What color is she? Blue, she’s a Toa of Water. Weapons? Mace and Shield. Frail? Yeah, and some could interpret that as thin, there’s that. Armor that Takanuva doesn’t recognize? Yup.

Anything else? No. Nothing else is needed. Nothing else exists. The context of that quote does not change the fact that she was not a Makuta. And about people looking up said context…

No, he didn’t.

If you’re entering this contest and you don’t know these characters or this source material, then I’m not sure how “not a Makuta” is going to change what you’re going to make.

You know what we didn’t need to include?

Helryx’s color. She’s a Toa of Water. What did we include in the topic?

That she should be blue.

We didn’t need to do that. But we did. Did you know Nidhiki has a green Volitak? Or that Marendar is humanoid? Or that Zaria is burnt orange and metallic grey, and doesn’t contain gold or bronze in his color scheme?

It is so demoralizing that you already expect the worst of us and expect us to do the minimal amount of effort despite doing the complete opposite. Your argument is predicated on an issue which doesn’t exist. And if we miss something or feel it’s important to capture the appearance of the character, or something is brought to us that we missed and there is a good argument to include it? Then we’ll add it.

Give an inch, take the continent.

I expected better from people. I guess that means I should give up and not continue to hope for better.

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And yet many still assumed that Takanuva mistook her for a Makuta. Could it be that the quote, with no clarification provided, could be interpreted as Helryx, despite not being a Makuta, looked so unfamiliar to Takanuva that he mistook her for one at first? No, what am I saying, that’s clearly not it.

Yes, he did. He even did so in the very quote that you posted.

Not everybody is an all-knowing lore expert like you, and that doesn’t make them any less of a fan. People can be familiar with the basics of the character and still want to participate in the contest, or know the character from other sources (like me and many others who have never read a single Bionicle novel because they just so happened to be born in a country that never got them).

It’s your job to provide a clear description on how the character is supposed to look like in-canon. Seeing how much of a confusion the quote you provided caused doesn’t make me feel like you did that right.

You seem to have a very different experience with this community than I do, and a generally optimistic attitude towards its members. That is something worth admiring, I just hope it won’t come back to bite you.

I agree with @Voxovan that it’s probably worth erring on the side of… accessibility when it comes to bringing people up to speed on what we know about a character. The ‘frail/thin’ was an unfortunate paraphrase, and I’m disappointed it wasn’t amended, as it did seem to influence a lot of the entries’ designs. I hadn’t noticed a significant Makuta-isation, but I could have missed it.

Some of these things may have been compounded by Helryx’s first-Toa status; I don’t think the other Toa designs will necessarily have the same issues.

The TTV staff have tried their damnedest at this, I don’t think the misteps are all that hard to fix, and they’ve been pretty open to critiques during a rather bumpy contest. If we were going to have a revote on the contests as a whole, I think TTV have at least earned a second, hopefully smoother, shot at it.

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I’m going to refrain from getting involved in the present “““debate””” and just comment on the sidelines that it’s almost incredible how selectively some folks can read and how staunchly and harshly they will fight to die on a hill that literally doesn’t even exist.

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The mental gymnastics some people have gone through is olympic-worthy in my opinion.

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Man I love reading eljays responses to criticism, you’re doing a good job keep up the the good work.

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So are we having Artakha next, or is there a poll going on for what character we want to moc next?

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Correct.

I think

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The more this is said, the more I’m convinced that she is a Makuta.

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@Voxovan and @Eljay, you both seem to be using the same arguments over and again that neither seems to acknowledge to its furthest extent. I apologize if either of you takes offense with this comment, but I wish to try to clarify what each of you is trying to say to one another. Here’s a breakdown of this situation.

Both of you are in the right, as well as being wrong. Eljay, you and your fellow TTV members who worked on gathering information for this contest should have nothing to feel underappreciated about, many of us are thankful for this inclusion to inform others who may not know as much as others do. Even to those who have not read the source material, these selected quotes are just right for describing her appearance. In context, most anybody has learned literary forms such as simile and its antithesis uses in describing an object or entity as being like/dislike another by the time they have turned 13, which is an age requirement for the active use of this site. However, this is not the case with everyone.

For whatever reasons they may have, may it be learning disability, family issues, or any other form of impairment to their study life, not everyone has this quality of literary insight. To make an extreme example of this, let me interject with a couple of instances where I have experienced the great disparity between physical and mental age. Working as a janitor, I have seen fecal matter plastering the walls of a bathroom stall, reaching all the way from the floor to dripping from the ceiling, matched with a loaded article of undergarments laid out at the foot of the toilet. I work at a college, this was an adult who committed this atrocity of nature. At the same time, I have encountered ten-year-old kids who pronounce themselves with such purpose, clarity, and fluidity of vocab that you would believe they had come straight from a collegiate-level English seminar. In short the idea that the age of a person, such as that that would be a requirement to join these discussions, would also imply educated ability is a false line of thought.

Additionally, there are other mishaps that occur with those of different languages. Kudos to all of you who are here as a second language speaker, thank you for your efforts to join this community in an active manor. English is a terrible language, relatively speaking, and it can be very daunting to try to learn. And while I understand there are many who can speak second-hand English even better than those considered native speakers, it doesn’t elude the fact that the language barrier exists. Grammar can be especially confusing. So not everyone can quite comprehend every aspect of what a quote might imply, whether with context or not.

However, Voxovan, this does not mean that the contest itself wasn’t inclusive of those who took the Makuta imagery literally. As Eljay stated, those who submitted their Makuta inspired Helryx MOCs were accepted, without question. They may not have lasted long in the voting process, but neither did plenty of other submissions that were very likely viewed by their creators to be their ideal model. Besides, this is only due to the community as a whole out-voting these Makuta Helryx designs. While it is stated that she is not a Makuta, before he activated his light Takanuva said he saw a figure that reminded him of one, and that she was undoubtedly ancient like one. This could very well mean that Helryx could have some Makuta-esque design in her appearance, even if she was distinctive from one. TTV did not exclude this. They provided a platform for all of these entries and many other artistic ideas of Helryx to enter.

To make a point about Mesonak’s quote that has been bounced back and forth, his inclusion of the word probably allows for situations where a participant didn’t know the context for these quotes. And while I agree with Eljay that those who submit should at least have some background knowledge about the character to depict them right (just think about all the criticism book-movies get for not following the script), again he and his fellow members of TTV never excluded those who did not know Helryx.

Additionally, they have stated on multiple occasions that they are open to suggestions, as long as they are not as time consuming and far out as, say, a total revote. If there needs to be clarification to the descriptions, then let’s task ourselves to do this next time. Here’s a solution to this. Whether it be directly inserted into the character description or in a separate post, let’s upload links to the source material, you couldn’t say context wasn’t given then. If there needs to be any other clarification, if someone so finds it to be confusing, they ask someone on the Message Board or in the comments of the character contests to help out.

We are a community. We experience and learn from our mistakes together to better understand each other and enhance our future activities as a whole. We build upon each other, even without meeting face-to-face, we become people of a society brought together by their common interests. So let’s stop bickering about the past, and adapt ourselves for the future, where we can all be friendly and enjoy one another’s presence.

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Well said Meso! :+1:
It really is circular logic.
Doing such poll again, for no legitimate reason, would only give anti-contest saboteurs a tool to cause further mayhem.

People prepare for the most legendary episode of Nak & Jay yet!

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Can you provide any examples of this? I haven’t seen anyone saying this, on any of the art entries/polls.

Edit:

Reading through this, it seems like takanuva thinks this is THE Makuta, aka Teridax. Which makes sense, as that’s the only Makuta he’s seen so far. He wouldn’t know what other Makuta look like. So she absolutely could look like a Makuta, just not Teridax.

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