Hello everyone, after reading about the battle between Icarax and Teridax when Icarax tried to conquer the matoran universe by force, Teridax interrupted his plans and the battle went like this: The battle that followed was epic. Icarax was the better fighter, but Teridax was more cunning. He allowed Icarax to pound him for hours on end, until the rebel’s energies were almost exhausted. Then Teridax exerted the smallest amount of his will and turned the Manas against Icarax. Once he was surrounded, Teridax used every power at his command to defeat Icarax. What I don’t understand is how Icarax could “pound” on Teridax for hours without breaching his armor and spilling his energy? Especially when during the fight with Gorast, Vamprah and Mutran vs Icarax this is what was stated: Gorast could have used the help. Icarax’s strategy was as simple as it was deadly: Slash open her armor and then use laser vision to incinerate her energy as it leaked out. The success of this method had forced her to keep her distance from Icarax and left Vamprah alone in the fight. So my question is how the fight with Teridax could have lasted hours when Icarax was the better fighter and all it takes is a slash from a protosteel weapon to open their armor and spill their energy? Or was the “allow Icarax to pound him for hours” not meant to be taken literally?
Could it be that icarax learned from his defeat?
When he fought Teridax, he struck randomly, no control, with the goal of beating the Brotherhood leader through shear brute force. When he fought Gorast, he actually targeted the weak spots in her armour, fighting with his head as well as his blades.
That would be my theory.
Not a bad theory, I just would think a seasoned warrior such as Icarax would not go into any fight without a plan. Especially the most skilled warrior of their kind. Even if he had no plan, Icarax who was able to defeat the entire Toa Nuva team single handedly could defeat the Makuta in single combat who lost to six novice Toa.
This is certainly incongruous, though I think an argument can be made for each:
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Teridax against the Mata. According to his diary thing in Makuta’s guide to the Universe, he didn’t think these were the real Toa Mata at first (and despite being ‘novices’, they were still trained by the Order of Mata Nui, and have skills and muscle memory). He underestimated them badly, and it cost him, forcing him to retreat.
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Icarax vs the Nuva. Icarax had the advantage of surprise, and he is a more skilled warrior than Teridax. According to the Gali Nuva blog, he took down the Nuva with swift, sure blows, so I think it is safe to say he’s learned a bit from his defeat by Teridax. Teridax had the advantage of knowing how Icarax fights, as well, an advantage the Toa Nuva lacked.
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Icarax vs Gorast. Another thing to note is that Gorast tried the “slash open his armour and fry his energy” trick. When this didn’t work as she expected, thanks to icarax being devolved, it took her a while to adapt. And also, icarax knows how Gorast fights, and while she may know how he fought before, perhaps she hasn’t worked with Icarax since his defeat by Teridax, and isn’t used to him using more targeted attacks.
Hahaha I just realized how biased my original post looks when coupled with my username. You make many valid points, given your points it definitely makes more sense, though if Icarax did not bring an army of Manas for Teridax to use against him, I wonder how it would have turned out. I’m certain now that the “pounding on him for hours” quote was not meant to be literal as it does state the battle was epic right before that and I’m sure a spectator such as Mutran would not say that if Teridax was standing still while Icarax just repeatedly hit him lol. I also want to make known here today that I really like Teridax, he was my original favorite Makuta and the only one back then haha. I just was in disbelief about the fight and needed a second opinion which really helps to look at things from another perspective. Thank you for your views on his matter.
I also have thought. It is said on BS01 that battle betveen Teridax and Icarax was ridht after the Great Cataclysm, so a the time Teridax was in his Shadow Titan form, which is pretty big and stonrg (though he was already without wings because of Shadowed One, I presume it was something betveen 2003 and 2004 sets). But we don’t know in what form was Icarax during battle. Most likely it was some form of the size of other 2008 Makuta (the size of Toa, actually), so Teridax just could be bigger and with more tough armor. What I don’t uderstand is how Icarax could be exhausted. He was made from antidermis! Antidermis couldn’t be exhausted (as it is said on “Makuta” page)! I think we need “Firespitting with BS01” episode about Makuta…
If you mean this line:
the Makuta did not need to sleep or get tired, breathe, eat, or drink
I think it means tired as in sleepy. Like, there’s a difference between “tired because I just ran a mile”, and “I’m tired because I’ve been awake for 36 hours.” I should know, I’ve done both.
What bothers me is the fact that it says “they don’t need to get tired.” like getting tired is something you just do. Think I’ll edit that…
Maybe yes, and maybe no. Need to search “Ask Greg” stuff then. But I still presume that it is abut physical exhaustment too.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the truth is simply that it needed to happen that way for the plot’s sake in Greg’s eyes. I believe he even said something along the lines of “I make characters exactly as powerful as I need them to be at the moment” or something such once.
But since this bit of lore exists, I guess we’ll have to try our best to explain it.
Personally, I think the most likely explanation is that Teridax used his powers more cleverly. “Pounding him for hours” could simply mean that Teridax didn’t retaliate - but doesn’t necessarily mean Teridax didn’t defend himself. The power arsenal of the Makuta includes several powers that make them hard to damage - Fire and Ice Resistance, Elasticity, Dodge, Density Control, Limited Invulnerability and potentially even Teleportation. Especially by utilizing Density Control an Limited Invulnerability cleverly, Teridax might have been able to render Icarax’s superior close combat skills irrelevant.
That leaves the ranged powers. Since both have the same powers, however, I would guess this means they can fairly easily deflect the other’s attacks by using their own identical power. It is furthermore imaginable that more energy is needed to launch an actually dangerous attack than for deflecting such an attack just slightly enough to be harmless. This could explain why Icarax ran out of power before Teridax.
And yes, Makuta can run out of power, I’d say. They don’t get physically tired anymore after their evolution, but like with a Toa’s elemental pool that can run out and needs time to recharge, I imagine the Makuta to have a similar thing. Icarax just wasn’t able to call upon his powers anymore at the end, while Teridax still could - and without energy left, Icarax wasn’t able to defend himself against them like Teridax did before.
The thing with Gorast is that I think she has a very different fighting style to Teridax. In my eyes Gorast seems like the kind of person who always tries to go for a reckless quick kill. If that doesn’t work, she’s got a problem. Her fighting style is very offensive and focuses on close quarters combat - as does Icarax’s. Only he’s probably a little better in total and much better in the long run at it. Plus in this particular fight only an actual killing blow could defeat him, as he was turned back into a biomechanical being. Though I guess eventually he’d have tired due to that same fact…
Bravo! You have done well in your elaboration of the battle and it is certainly very commendable and It is something akin to what I imagine how the fight would unfold. I think it would be a much more epic or memorable battle if it were the way you described then just having it be a literal interpretation. Thank you for input, it was very welcomed and helpful.
Another point to consider here is Icarax’s mindset and motives going into the fight. This was his first rebellion against the leader of the Brotherhood, his first open act of defiance. Additionally, Icarax’s disdain for Teridax is well-known, as is his ego. With a lesser opponent like Gorast, pragmatic and easy victories are useful because things could easily get out of hand if you’re not careful. Icarax, however, likely wanted to completely humiliate Teridax and revel in his victory, so a more drawn-out fight–especially one where it looks like Teridax is losing the whole time–helps his cause.
If anyone is a fan of Game of Thrones, I actually think the battle between the Mountain and the Oberyn Matell is a good analogue here. At first, Oberyn’s intention is to draw out the duel and turn it into a show, accomplishing his goal of revenge in a very flashy and dramatic way, although this does not go as he plans it. Similarly, Icarax wanted to make a big statement in challenging and fighting Teridax, but got drawn in by Teridax’s deception.
Very good point! I also like the reference of the Mountain vs Oberyn as it does show exactly what you were pointing out, lol minus the head crushing. Maybe Icarax is a more honorable fighter than Teridax? As Icarax could have killed a Manas and used his mask of scavenging to draw the power from the recently deceased Manas to gain more energy but he did not, nor did he command the crabs to surround/attack Teridax like Teridax did. Perhaps he lost simply because he did not use dirty moves? I know Chirox Is fond of fighting dirty.
It could be debatable whether it wouldn’t cost more energy to kill a Manas than Icarax could have scavanged - remember that two Manas are considered enough to deal with an entire Toa team.
And while we’re at the Manas, Icarax couldn’t really use them in the fight in any way (for example force them to kill each other so that Icarax didn’t have to spend energy on killing one), since Teridax would all the time have contested his control over the Rahi, I imagine.
But aside from that, of course Icarax didn’t want to use the Manas here anyways, I’d guess - he wanted to defeat Teridax himself, 1v1. And that most likely because - as Toa_Heatwave pointed out above - he wanted to make a show of his superiority. You don’t make a show of your superiority if you can only win by killing off your minions and taking their life force.
I always forget how powerful a foe the Manas are lol. Yeah it definitely is debatable then if Icarax would even bother with that, I suppose it would just depend on how easy it is for a Makuta to kill a Manas which I have not read of an instance of that happening so there is only speculation.
Though all this fight really proved was that in a fight in where Teridax did not cheat and fought with honor, he would have lost to Icarax.
or maybe this was done before they converted to pure energy