Some may prefer it, but that would be boring and unoriginal. I’m glad it works the way it does.
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I’ve been thinking about it, and I realized that the “carving a message into your past self’s armour” trick actually wouldn’t work. I say that based off of this quote:
- What happens if a duplicate summoned by the Mohtrek gets killed or mutated or something else happens to them?
- Someone just asked me this the other day, and it’s a good question. In comics, if your past self gets damaged, what happens is an alternate future gets created in which your present day self is similarly damaged. It does not affect your “main universe” self.
This means that, if Bitil were to carve a message into his past self’s armour, the message would never have appeared in his own armour in his own past; it would only appear on the armour of the alternate version of himself in the universe that branched off at the moment from which Bitil summoned himself.
This also removes the loop of Bitil carving and receiving the message: he only carves the message in the “main universe”, and he only receives the message in the past of the “branch universe”, which would have a different present in which Bitil may not carve the message.
According to the quote above, this isn’t the case: you would still continue to exist in your own universe, and would only be dead in the alternate universes that split from that moment.
This is also supported by the following quote:
Any paradoxical situation can only create a new timeline, rather than somehow changing the current one.
These quotes also mean that “original Bitil” should theoretically never experience any random future damage, since all damage to past selves gets shunted to alternate timelines. This means that, every time Prime Bitil experienced sudden damage, it is evidence that the prime timeline just diverged from another timeline. This also means that Bitil will not necessarily ever actually re-experience the future-battles that randomly damaged him, since the battle occurred in an alternate timeline with a future that may be dependent on the fact that he wasn’t randomly damaged.
Makuta’s Guide to the Universe (p. 83) specifically says “and if a past self was killed in the present, Bitil himself would cease to exist.”
Seems like we may have contradictory information on this, but I would like to explore this theory in case it’s true.
Every single time a Bitil gets sent back, they end up in a diverging reality. Presumably, the difference between each universe would be extremely small, to the point of no noticeable difference. If a summoned Bitil is simply sent straight back with no injury, I can’t imagine it would create a dramatic change in fate, but nonetheless a new dimension would be created, in order to maintain consistency.
If this is true, than returning Bitils would be essentially just sent back in time, as we would have imagined it prior to all this breakdown. Small cuts and bruises would also be unlikely to make changes in fate, and even large scale injuries could theoretically also be rendered pointless if the returning Bitil patches up his armor quickly. In this case, sending messages to the past would aid just the past Bitil though
If that Bitil with the message then repeats this process, summoning a past self, carving the armor, and sending them into an alternate universe, then he would have gained potentially key knowledge, while also keeping that cycle going. Now this does rely on each Bitil acting in the interest of dimensions he will likely never encounter, but it’s still a possibility.
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I don’t know how to handle this contradiction; on the one hand, published sources are supposed to take priority. On the other hand, the scenario presented by the published source creates an impossible paradox, and Greg has otherwise been extremely consistent that the death of a past instance simply results in an alternate universe.
This is admittedly speculation, but I wonder if Makuta’s Guide To The Universe (or at least Bitil’s entry) was written before the concept of alternate universes was created. How would that affect the “tiers” of canonicity?
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tl;dr this mask is extremely confusing
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MGttU literally has a section from Dark Mirror, which takes place entirely in another universe, in case the existence of the Olmak since 2006 wasn’t enough.
After looking back at everything, I think it’s not an either or situation, it’s both. Present day Bitil would vanish, but also an alternate timeline would be created where he died the moment he brought his past self from.
This is what Greg seems to say in the second quote you cited:
Pretty simple, really. Let’s say Teridax is wearing the Mohtrek in 2003 story. He is about to fight Takanuva, so he uses the mask to summon Teridax from 2001 story to help him.
During the battle, 2001 Teridax dies. Since his future self cannot exist if his past self has been killed, 2003 Teridax vanishes and an alternate timeline is automatically created where Teridax did not exist in 2002 or 2003 story.
This way, the nice and easy limitation I gave can still work, and also sending messages to the past by carving into your past self’s armor doesn’t work, as it would just create an alternate timeline.
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Exactly, the timey-wimey aspect adds nothing to it. Should have been left out completely.
Let’s say Bitil kidnapped me from my home and brought me to his far-away lair. But since I’m an amazing Toa of Everything, I break free. In an attempt to re-capture me, he uses his Mask to pull in a copy of himself from five years ago. But since I’m an amazing Toa of Everything, I swiftly kill the duplicate, causing the “real” Bitil to pop out of existence… But is that all?
Since Bitil has been technically dead for five years at this point, who kidnapped me? Couldn’t have been Bitil, his mysterious death was all over the news a while ago! But then how did he die? I sure couldn’t have done it, because I was never kidnapped and never fought him. It’s the Grandfather Paradox, and it’s impossible to explain. This is why this mask power was a huge mistake.
Edited for Double Post - BioKnight
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Actually, it adds everything. It’s what makes this mask interesting.
No, it really doesn’t. Because Greg specifically said that he’d avoid doing anything that would result in a paradox. So functionally, it is just a normal mask of Duplication with an extremely bizarre mechanism that doesn’t actually come into play or make a difference whatsoever. Most mask powers aren’t super interesting. Especially some of the 2008 Makuta ones where their masks are completely redundant with their normal powers. This mask is not interesting. It’s just pointlessly convoluted. Bitil supposedly gets random injuries out of nowhere from his future self using the mask, but this is basically just trivia - it never factors into the story. Since the Mask puts Bitil’s past selves back in time the moment they left, and since they lose their memories, it’s like they never left at all, and is again very pointless.
Furthermore, Greg said many many times that time travel doesn’t exist in Bionicle - I don’t know why he decided against this, but he should have stuck with it.
Sounds like justification in favor of using alternate dimensions. It keeps paradoxes from happening, and hinders the time traveling aspect.
Which is no reason to dull the Mohtrek
I think most people would disagree, but it is subjective
This isn’t the only convoluted thing in Bionicle, and the point is to ensure a level of consistency
Except for all the things we’ve been discussing, and how it absolutely isn’t like he never left at all
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Did you read my post about the grandfather paradox? I think you may have skipped it. EDIT: Automated moderator deleted it because it thought it was an advertisement (???)
It’s already pretty dull since the Time-related aspect never once has any significance in the story. My idea wouldn’t dull it, it’d just make it easier to understand and stay consistent with how other mask powers tend to work, at least in regards to how complicated they are.
But it totally breaks consistency. If the Legendary Mask of Time itself cannot perform time-travel, why can this random Great Mask do it? Look at this quote from Greg, all the way back in 2004:
“I can pretty much tell you time travel will never be a part of BIONICLE as long as I am involved in it. Time travel is a sure way of fouling up a continuing story.”
He was right back then, and he made a mistake of both breaking an established rule, and making a mask power needlessly and pointlessly complicated when all the rest are pretty straightforward.
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What does the grandfather paradox have to do with our alternate dimension theory?
It not showing up in the story is no reason to get rid of it. If you think it’s dull just because we never got to see it working, than you don’t know what dull is. It’s a mask that is complicated, and that’s what makes it fun, take away the fun, and it becomes dull.
Most likely because of how limited it is. It’s not like Bitil himself could’ve gone back in time to change things, it’s a very rigid form of time travel.
Not like I can explain Greg’s thought process on this, but if the ideas this topic has presented are correct, it’s possible that Greg made the Mohtrek in such a way that it can’t foul up the story
It was double posting
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Everything. Let’s say Bitil kidnapped me from my home and brought me to his far-away lair. But since I’m an amazing Toa of Everything, I break free. In an attempt to re-capture me, he uses his Mask to pull in a copy of himself from five years ago. But since I’m an amazing Toa of Everything, I swiftly kill the duplicate, causing a new timeline to be created where Bitil suddenly vanished 5 years ago. But what happens to the current timeline?
Since Bitil has been technically dead for five years at this point, who kidnapped me? Couldn’t have been Bitil, his mysterious death was all over the news a while ago! But then how did he die? I sure couldn’t have done it, because I was never kidnapped and never fought him.
If the Mask was pulling alternate selves from other dimensions into your current one, it’d make a little more sense. But it explicitly states that it pulls alternate selves from your own past timeline, and that’s where we get the paradox.
Man, you and I have really different ideas of fun. The Mohtrek is complicated just for complication’s sake. If complexity doesn’t have any benefit, then it’s bad. I think we’re reaching the point where we need to just agree to disagree.
Okay, that’s understandable, but it said “the community feels it is an advertisement, something that is overly promotional in nature instead of being useful or relevant to the topic as expected.” Just seems like the wrong message to me.
Based on what we’ve been discussing, the Bitil that dies ends up being one from an alternate world. The issue of this paradox otherwise would exist if Bitil died, or just sustained injury. If an injured Bitil gets sent to an alternate dimension, then the present Bitil would still disappear, since his past version is gone.
I see what you’re saying, but I think it’s just an adjustment to the working theory that we have to make.
Well I do enjoy thinking about this kind of thing, so like I said earlier, it’s subjective, and from the opinions I’ve seen, most people like it.
Yeah, the system must’ve messed up, although I’ve not seen that kind of error before
Edit: New idea on this paradox thing. When a past Bitil is summoned, the mask goes back to the time Bitil wants to pull from, duplicates the Bitil in that time, leaving one in the prime dimension, and putting the other into a splitting dimension. Then it brings the split Bitil to the summoning Bitil who is in the prime dimension, and when they get sent back, it’s into the alternate dimension, leaving no space in time where Bitil is missing.
Second idea, time doesn’t have a frame rate, so a “point” in time doesn’t exist. It’s like trying to find the highest number in infinite. So, there’s technically no ping in time that a Bitil would be missing, making it so the paradox doesn’t happen.
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Okay, but then why not just directly duplicate the main Bitil who’s actively using the mask? Why bring past selves into it at all?
Well Bitil missing or not wouldn’t be the cause of the paradox, since it’s already established that it returns him after taking him in less than a fraction of a second. That’s not the issue. The issue is that if you’ve changed history by killing Bitil’s summoned past self from 5 years ago, then there’s no way he could have attacked you today. But then if he never attacked you, then there’s no way you could have killed his summoned past self. And so on.
The cheap way to avoid the paradox, is that killing Bitil’s past self actually doesn’t change history, and instead he just blinks out of existence and everyone carries on as usual. But this doesn’t make a whole lot of sense and would be really lazy writing, since it kind of negates the whole supposed implications of the Time-related aspect. It’d just be easier to say that if you kill one copy, you kill them all including the original.
And if points in space can exist, so can points in time.
First things first, I thought of another way to use the Mohtrek: Secret-Keeping.
If you have sensitive information, you can wipe it from your own mind (so that no one can steal it telepathically, or torture it out of you), and then use the Mohtrek to recall an instance of yourself that still remembers if you ever want to access the information.
Good catch.
I also think you’re right about the present self disappearing and the alternate universe being created.
So if my understanding is correct, the Mohtrek works as follows:
If a past-self is injured, an alternate universe is created in which you were suddenly injured at the time that current-you summoned yourself from. If a past-self dies, the alternate universe is still created, and current-you suddenly disappears. In both scenarios, nothing changes in your own past; everything leading up to the use of the mask is unchanged.
The only thing here that doesn’t make sense to me is the fact that current-you still disappears, since the damage is supposed to be “sent” to the alternate version of you. Canon is canon, though, so whatever. I guess this adds some risk to the use of the mask, and it can be explained/headcanoned by some sciency-sounding “snapback effect”.
This kind of weakens the Mohtrek (compared to some of the ideas that have been discussed), as you still run the risk of disappearing in the present, and you can’t do anything to your duplicates that would actually help “prime you”.
Where the Mohtrek can still get really crazy, though, is if its user also has dimensional travel abilities, since they could actually access the alternate universes whose pasts they affected.
Example
(For example, if Helryx used the Secret-Keeping technique described above to protect the identities of Order agents, someone in the present with a Mohtrek could summon a past self from before Helryx had her mind wiped, and then give them instructions on what information to get out of her. This would create an alternate universe in which the alternate version of the character could get the info from alternate Helryx before she “forgets” it, and then go back to the original dimension to give it to the original version of themselves.)
As explained above, the Grandfather Paradox is avoided by the concept of alternate universes. If your past self dies in the present, present-you still disappears, but everything you did up until that point is the same, and you only died earlier in the alternate universe.
To continue with your example of you killing past-Bitil: Bitil would indeed pop out of existence, but he only died five years ago in an alternate universe. Everything leading up to that point (including his use of the mask) still happened in your universe.
Is it complicated? Yes.
It it complicated “for complication’s sake”? No.
The Mohtrek pulls past instances of yourself to the present. That’s it. Every question and hypothetical scenario after that comes directly from that fact. There’s no arbitrary limits or random rules: every “rule” about the mask has a logical reason for existing.
That’s kind of what I’m thinking as well. That’s along the lines of what I said in my first post in this topic, about a single “frame” of time existing in two dimensions simultaneously.
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but if you forgot the info, how would you remember you ever had the info
mohtrek use: remembering why you walked into a room by recalling a version of yourself from two seconds ago
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It’s not that “what happens to your past self happens to you.” If it were, and past Bitil dies, present Bitil dies too, meaning his body would still exist in the universe, just dead. But he doesn’t die. He vanishes, ceases to exist.
I think this might be a programmed failsafe in the mask. Is it paradoxical? Perhaps. Could something worse happen if present Bitil didn’t cease to exist? Probably.
I actually had this exact thought earlier today. The Mohtrek and the Olmak are a powerful duo.
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I don’t know the specifics of the various memory-wipe methods of the Matoran Universe, but it seems reasonable that there’s a way to remove information while keeping the knowledge that you once knew the information.
Heck, it’s possible in the real world: I don’t remember exactly what shirt I wore a month ago, but I remember that I was wearing a shirt, and I could find out what it was by calling a past instance of myself from a month ago.
Never mind sensitive information, you could just use the Mohtrek to free up some brainspace.
Yeah, maybe. I can’t imagine, though, what would be so bad about Bitil continuing to exist if his past self died in an alternate universe. That’s kind of why I’m thinking that it’s instead an unintended side effect of whatever fictional science is behind the Mohtrek’s abilities.
Theory
Maybe it’s a “glitch” in reality itself; the past self (which, for the purposes of this theory, is actually an alternate self that also exists in a single “frame” of this reality) dies in the present, but reality recognizes that they are a past version. Then reality goes “oh wait, this person died in the past, they shouldn’t be around any more; better fix that”, and vanishes the current version as soon as it realizes the “mistake”.
Now what would be the third mask for the ultimate kaita combo? Maybe the Olisi?
I’m not super clear on exactly how the Olisi works, but I’m wondering if you could use it to see exactly what must be changed in your past/present to create the “perfect” future (or present), and then use the Mohtrek to leave instructions with an alternate past self on how to create that universe, before finally using the Olmak to go to that dimension.
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