But that doesn’t make a lick of sense whatsoever. How can the main timeline possibly remain intact? If I go back in time and prevent WW2 from happening, and succeeded so that WW2 never happened… then what did I go back in time for? WW2 never happened, so I’d have no reason to travel through time… but then who stopped WW2? Nobody did, meaning it would have to happen. It’s a total parodox.
If we’re just throwing all logic out the window, then fine, but my whole point here is that a paradox is unavoidable without just making silly stuff up.
Lol, “No” isn’t an argument.
Okay, now what is the logical reason for the Timey-wimey instead of simply duplicating your current self?
How could everything I did stay the same if I didn’t exist to do it? Why would ONLY I disappear? If I built a sandcastle on the beach, then you went back and killed me as a baby, the sandcastle would have to disappear to, since I wasn’t around to build it.
would the user ceasing to exist remove his memory from the minds of others? if the universe is correcting, it would correct any instance after that point, would it not?
duplicating your current self would put two of the same entity in the mu - which I imagine the gsr’s systems wouldn’t like. two instances of duplicate code, the dual existence directly conflicting? you might end up with the universe trying to apply the status of one to the other at any given point; wounds would be shared, actions and thoughts would be shared.
Time Duplication is still having two of the same entity in the MU at once, and you’re just assuming that it’d be an issue anyway. I feel like messing with time would be WAY bigger of an issue to the GSR than just having a couple duplicates.
According to the alternate universe rules we’ve been discussing, WW2 was only prevented in an alternate universe that was generated when you went back in time.
Of course, this doesn’t apply exactly to the Mohtrek, since it doesn’t let you, yourself, go back in time, but the theory is the same: any changes you make, whether it’s you going back in time, or a past self being hurt in the present, only affects an alternate timeline. The past and present of your own timeline remain unchanged, keeping your reason to do what you did intact.
You’ve clearly read my entire post and know that that wasn’t my whole argument, so why would you even say this?
I think we have a differing opinion on what “complicated” means. To me, the Mohtrek isn’t complicated because it doesn’t really have any rules beyond “pull past selves to present”. You think it’s complicated because that premise itself is complicated to you. If I look at it that way, then sure, it’s complicated, but I don’t look at it that way. Difference of opinion.
Because you only disappear in the present. You aren’t entirely wiped from the timestream, you simply vanish at the moment in the present in which your summoned past self is killed.
I don’t see why it would.
If reality were to “fix the mistake” beyond just vanishing the person, that would also mean that reality would change the entire present as well, instantaneously undoing everything that the being did since their past version’s death.
While this wouldn’t create a paradox, since the instantaneous changes only occured after the usage of the mask, that seems to be a bit beyond what Greg has previously said would happen if a past self died. It would force the present of the original dimension to become the present of the alternate dimension in which the being died in the past, which kind of defeats the story purposes of the alternate dimension existing in the first place.
I’m with Lorentz on this one; if this were a problem with standard duplication, it would also be an issue with Time Duplication, if not even worse. I’m pretty sure this would also be an issue if a being were to visit an alternate dimension, which happened multiple times in the story without consequence (or at least without these consequences).
The theory purported is that this is an alternate universe entity - ergo, the base version of the user’s code would be wildly different, hence no conflict of interest on the part of the GSR.
However, the rest of that Greg quote the theory was based off of is interesting.
Greg defers to bzp (for some reason) and flat-out says he doesn’t know if that’s how it works. This quote was listen as having occurred no later than August 10th, 2010, and the follow-up quote, where Greg says that’s how it works, was posted on February 21st, 2014, and February 24th, 2014, respectively.
Initially Greg’s statement was in reference to “”“comics”“” - the only instance I’ve ever seen of anything like that happening is the exact opposite. Main character hits past main character in face and subsequently develops bruise on-the-spot to prove identity.
However, Greg’s decision to clarify that changes things.
…Except that it doesn’t.
The alternate dimension existing in the first place defeats the alternate dimension existing in the first place.
If the Mohtrek is pulling past versions of the user into existence, and those versions dying creates a split timeline, then those versions of the user weren’t the user. Since reality created another reality in which that user died at x point in time, those versions of the user had to come from said alternate reality in the first place. We know they had to because they died - meaning they aren’t the user. Because if they were the user, the user would be dead.
The Mohtrek can’t be pulling versions of the user from the past. It has to be pulling different versions of the user from other realities, with shared experiences and memories. TL;DR, the solution to the paradox is a paradox meaning the Mohtrek must operate differently.
This is actually a good point; if we go with the idea that the past instance is originally from an alternate reality, rather than just being sent back to one, then it’s just like when Takanuva was visiting other dimensions, and there’s no issue.
I still think that it’s a fairly big assumption to think that the past version would have “wildly different” code (since they were pulled from a “frame” of time that still exists in the original dimension), but it’s not an unreasonable one. The same goes for the idea of a Mask Of Standard Duplication: it’s a pretty big assumption to think that the Matoran Universe would have an issue with duplicate entities, but it’s not impossible.
I’m not sure if I understand what you’re saying here; I’m only saying that the alternate universe is pointless if the death of the past instance in the present causes the entire present to instantaneously change to one in which the user died in the past.
I’m saying that the present version vanishing upon a past instance’s death should be the only effect: no memory wipes, no undoing of actions; nothing.
But it has to pull instances from the past, since that’s the definition of the mask power. The way I see it, it can be both.
My solution is that it pulls the past instance from the single diverging “frame” which exists in both timelines; that way, the instance is still a past version of the user, but is still also an alternate version.
What does this mean? What is the paradoxical solution, and why does it mean that the Mohtrek must operate “differently”? And how does it operate differently? Differently from what?
The mask definition is that the user pulls past versions of himself into the present to operate for him. If a version dies, an alternate reality is created where the version died at the instant the user brought him to the future.
However, if the user brings a version to the future and that version dies, and the alternate universe exists, that means the version he pulled has to be the one from the alternate universe. Why does that have to be the case?
This is why:
That frame cannot be both entities. It has to be the version that died.
How do we know it was the alternate universe version? Because the user still exists.
The user still exists because the version that died was from an alternate universe that was created to compensate for the version of the past dying.
But the version that died is from an alternate universe. We know because the user still exists.
Ergo, the user’s past version did not die. So the alternate universe cannot exist if it was formed because of the version’s death.
Paradox.
As for your solution, that doesn’t actually solve the problem since it assumes the universe - the one that has yet to exist - does exist in order to pull the frame from both the user’s universe and the duplicate one which doesn’t exist yet.
My apologies. I tried to segue and it didn’t work, that’s on me.
“Copy of” would, I think, be stored differently from “entity code”. With such a mask, you’d be creating duplicates on the spot; they wouldn’t have existed prior, whereas the Mohtrek is pulling you from the past to exist now.
I wouldn’t call this a paradox; this is just one of those weird things with time manipulation where the effects happen before the cause, chronologically. The diverged universe must exist in the past, since a past version died in the present. Therefore, when the mask pulled a past instance, it took the alternate version.
As an example, let’s say that Present Bitil calls Past Bitil from 5 years ago, and Past Bitil dies, therefore creating an alternate universe that diverges 5 years ago with Bitil’s random death. For someone watching the multiverse chronologically, they would see the alternate dimension branch off, seemingly without reason, and then, 5 years later, they would see Present Bitil call Past Bitil, and he would come from the exact divergence frame of the alternate dimension, therefore causing the divergence of the dimension.
It’s also worth noting that alternate universes are explicitly stated to be caused by injuries as well, which implies (to me, at least) that they are caused by any difference between the original and returning versions. At that point, you have to ask what constitutes a “difference”? What if the summoned version returns in a different pose? What about the difference in age?
Since it’s impossible to return the past/alternate version in the exact same state as when they were taken, I would simply assume that every use of the mask creates an alternate universe, regardless of the outcome, which would also clear up your concerns of a paradox if my first example didn’t convince you.
This, of course, assumes the Bionicle universe is at least partially deterministic, which it isn’t.
From the description of the Kanohi Olisi:
The KanohiOlisi was the Great Mask of Alternate Futures . It allowed its user to project a mental illusion[2] of an alternate timeline or a possible future into targets’ minds.[3]
If the future would remain the same, there could be no possible futures - only alternate timelines. The second usage of the Olisi in Bionicle literature is when Matoro provoked Karzahni, causing him to show the future if Mata Nui died - a possible future, but not the future that ended up becoming reality.
We have a mask which specifically pulls from the past. It counteracts any paradox by creating a new universe. It counteracts that paradox by having the universe split in the past, to accommodate for the action in the future. But that requires that future to be decided, which the Kanohi Olisi proves is not the case.
And we have one more possible wrench to throw into this equation:
Pretty simple, really. Let’s say Teridax is wearing the Mohtrek in 2003 story. He is about to fight Takanuva, so he uses the mask to summon Teridax from 2001 story to help him.
During the battle, 2001 Teridax dies. Since his future self cannot exist if his past self has been killed, 2003 Teridax vanishes and an alternate timeline is automatically created where Teridax did not exist in 2002 or 2003 story.
Pohatu can create stone out of thin air that didn’t exist prior.
You are creating issues that don’t exist in Bionicle, and I’ll prove it with the mask of growth.
Bomonga uses the mask of growth to go from 7 feet tall to 60 feet tall. The GSR doesn’t say “wait, that’s not right, Bomonga’s code says he should be 7 feet tall,” and try to shrink him. As long as Bomonga is using his mask, he is 60 feet tall and that’s just how it is.
If you have a mask of duplication, there’s two ways it can work:
You make a duplicate that looks like you, but you control it. If it dies, nothing happens to you. It’s essentially the same as Nuparu making a vahki that looks and acts like Nuparu. Or, to compare it to Pohatu: his elemental power makes a rock. The hypothetical mask of duplication creates a more elaborate, less permanent rock. The GSR doesn’t say “wait, there shouldn’t be rock there.”
You split yourself into two bodies. If one dies, so does the other, because they’re both you. There isn’t two of you, there’s just one you in two bodies. As long as you’re using this mask, you have two bodies instead of one, just like how as long as Bomonga is using his mask, he’s 60 feet tall instead of 7.
I do find it hard to believe that Bionicle doesn’t work on a deterministic timeline, as that’s how all life works as far as I can tell, and Bionicle has destiny as a virtue, so I’d assume there are many things which are guaranteed to happen.
There’s prophecies in Bionicle, so how does that work if Bionicle isn’t deterministic?
This is probably another case of contradicting information. One of the questions we have to ask is what is the greater authority on canon. Greg’s quotes, or our reasoning based on what is solidly canon already
If time travel gets invented, we can test that theory.
Because there are elements that are predetermined, not the entire program. Takanuva is destined to become the Toa of light; anything in between that point can happen as long as it doesn’t interfere with the final goal. However destiny in Bionicle is an extremely loose definition, as Ahkmou was destined to become a Toa and never did.
As well, Destiny and Mata Nui’s Opinion tend to be one and the same. If the guy who runs the entire universe wants something to happen, you better believe he’s going to get his way.
Old Greg quotes outweigh new Greg quotes. However, old Greg quotes also say the Mohtrek has no confirmed capability to make alternate universes to compensate for paradox, and flat-out says he doesn’t know how it works.
So it could be Greg got the okay from the team to have it operate a certain way, or just decided this was how it would be, or forgot that he didn’t know. Only way to find out is by asking the man himself.
When asked what would happen if Mohtrek user summoned a past-self, carved a message into their body, then sent them back, Greg’s answers were usually along along the lines of “Well, since the only known user of the Mohtrek is dead, and I don’t plan on adding any others, I don’t know” or “I would generally just try to avoid doing that in a story. That way, it doesn’t become an issue.”
The fact that this is Greg’s attitude on it kind of proves to me that it was a bad idea to include the Time-related aspect at all, especially considering his older attitude on time travel in general.
Even if it is a terrible idea, what does that matter now? It’s canon, and it’s going to stay canon. We have to work with it. Greg saying he wouldn’t ever touch that subject probably just means he had no idea how it would’ve worked, so he left it.
Well nothing about it “matters.” My whole point is just that it was a really bad idea. Also, we definitely don’t have to “work with it” since in the realm of fanfiction, we’re kings.
I don’t see how the Olisi proves that. The Olisi shows you what the future would look like if something in the past, present, or near future happened differently, but that doesn’t change the fact that only one future actually happens.
This goes back to the discussion that happened here between myself and @Krelikan a couple days ago: beings have the free will to affect the future however they want (just like how the Olisi shows the futures for any number of hypothetical scenarios), but you can’t change the one “true” future that already exists on the timeline.
Any number of futures are possible at any given moment in time, completely dependent on what happens in the past and present, but there can still only be one future that actually happens.
They only die (or, more accurately, vanish) in the moment in the present that the summoned past self dies. I don’t see how this is “contradicting information”, or how it contradicts my previous statements.
I get where you’re coming from about headcanons and whatnot, but this is a discussion specifically about the exact canon abilities and “rules” of the Mohtrek; for the purpose of this discussion, we actually do have to “work with it”.
I’ll give you this one. I was replying to what you said in that post and foolishly ignored the context I’d already read. Also the rest of my response was better anyway.
Same entity, but split across two bodies.
It just occurred to me that we have an example of this: Zaktan. Zaktan is one entity with a billion different bodies, that he can split apart and reform. The only difference is that he keeps the same amount of mass, while a mask of duplication would duplicate your mass.
The only thing I don’t like is that you lose the “if one dies they all do” drawback.
The Olisi is seeing a possible future - that means other futures are also possible. Going forward in time would only show you the future if everything remained in a specific course; the Olisi only sees a future which occurs if a specific number of things go a certain way.
If A is able to see ten seconds in the future and tells B he will be pointing up in ten seconds, what happens if B only points down? Ultimately, A saw the future where B pointed up, but the choice to point up was left in B’s hands.
You can fanfiction Takanuva as a gaming pc and Teridax as a teddy ruxpin. Freedom is yours. But currently, we’re trying to decipher the specifics of the source material, to better understand what we’re referencing in our own fanfiction and fan interpretations of the existing media.
Kudos there. Greg could have said the mask only brings duplicates of yourself from the past, not the exact copies of yourself, but here we are.
No matter what the Mohtrek does, it really messes around with the entire Bionicle multiverse - be it creating new ones or pulling ones from other universes - it’s a pretty stupid mask.
The spear of fusion was able to turn Vezok from one person into two. Granted, one was literally insane, but it shows that such a thing can happen.
Here’s a third, interesting possibility
The mask can make a duplicate of you. However, it’s just a lifeless Protodermis puppet, much like a Tryna might make, without one final piece: a piece of your own spirit to make it move autonomously.
This gives the mask several limitations:
Duplicates can’t make duplicates, because they only have a fraction of spirit to begin with.
you can only make a limited number of duplicates
if any of them dies, it affects you: either you lose a piece of your spirit, or you just die, either could work. “losing a piece of your spirit” would be the equivalent of what happens to Vezok if vezon dies.