Star Wars: The Last Jedi

I assumed this meant that the First order had to fire upon the base so that the guns would have to recharge. This would give Poe the required amount of time to destroy the turrets so that the bombers would show up and explode.
Rather than writing the plot so that things happen in a natural fashion, the characters makes stupid decisions to force the story to go in a certain direction

Standard Imperial orbital bombardment would have been more flashy. One of the accompanying star destroyers could have done so while the fleet killer killed the fleet.

The reasoning that you have given doesn’t even come close to the points I have given.
Your points
1: The Base could have had a few people in it.
2:The Base has valuable equipment in it.
3: The First Order didn’t want any cells using it as a base later on.
4: The First Order wanted to be flashy.

My Points
1: The Base is empty.
2: The equipment in the base was stuff they were willing to leave.
3: Even if it wasn’t empty, destroying the fleet would strand any survivors in the system
4: The base isn’t going anywhere and can be destroyed later.
5:Compared to the Fleet, the base is a,very, low priority target.
6: A good Military should be focused in stacking up the body count, not intimidation.
7:If the (not)Empire wanted to be flashy, Orbital Bombardment would have been a better way to go.

You admit thus to be true, and this has made them ineffective in combat. Yet you won’t admit that they have acted incompetantly because of it.

A full on orbital bombardment would be a complete waste of resources, instead it’s a front and center show of force.

Because they have not, they acted inefficiently because of it, incompetent would have been if they had done so without the means of tracking the fleet.

That would be more accurate if we were describing larger scale ships like Star Destroyers. Fighters and bombers, both in Star Wars AND reality rely on their speed and maneuverability more than durability to keep them out of the scrap heap.

The Resistance Bombers are really the first time in Star Wars where we see bombers that aren’t really that fast. Y-Wings, while slower than the X-Wing, were still fairly quick. Separatist HYENA Bombers, and TIE Bombers were pretty much the same. These new Sequel-era bombers are more akin to the Flying Fortresses that saw combat during WWII than bombers we’ve seen previously. There were not fast, and while they had defensive capabilities such as turrets, they required fighter escorts.

The same can be said for these Resistance Bombers. They were able to carry large payloads of explosives, but not really do much good on their own. The Resistance Fighter escort failed pretty early on due to the sheer number of TIE F/O fighters headed for them, so of course most of them got ripped to shreds. They probably would have all been destroyed if Poe hadn’t managed to take out the turrets on the Dreadnought.

Now, one might question why ships that carry such payloads wouldn’t have shielding equipped, but that would probably be down to power management. Gotta focus on those engines and turrets, not to mention bomb release. Probably not much left for a shield generator of any sort.

No you don’t, but it sends a message to the rest of the galaxy.

“Hey, look, we just killed Leia Organa and her band of rebels. We destroyed their base, their fleet, and all their leadership. You cannot stop us, so just lay yourselves down and be our doormats. The First Order is supreme.”

I would argue that their overcofidence causes them to make stupid mistakes, which in turn can make them look incompetent. Now, of course a few overconfident mistakes does not mean they’re 100% incompetent, but you only have to be overconfident and let your guard down once to let a proton torpedo slip through your exhaust port and blow you and your fuzzy slippers up.

The First Order has the exact same bravado that lost the Empire both Death Stars, and control of the galaxy thirty years before. They control a vast army, and a few intelligent military minds, some even left over from the Imperial Era. However, they didn’t learn from the mistakes of the past. Intimidation can be a great tool, but you have to be smart enough to know when to use it and when to just wipe out an insignificant opposing military force as fast as possible for the sake of efficiency. That can almost be an even greater show of intimidation than your slow-moving almost impenetrable walkers.

We can argue back and forth about this all day long. Anyone can say what they want about the First Order and Resistance military tactics seen in The Last Jedi. Call them sound, call them completely insane, it doesn’t matter. What’s become clear to me in the months since this film’s release is the allegories that the First Order and the Resistance represent. The First Order is those who can’t learn from the past, while the Resistance is those who remember the past, honor it, but pursue a new path toward the future. Disney has packaged these in familiar yet new designs to get the message across. Granted, the message hasn’t come across… perfectly. But these new themes are worthy of being explored, and some criticisms toward events in these new films just don’t hold any weight because that thing you may be complaining about is the entire point.

We’ll start with our new Empire. The First Order does not learn from the past. They’re repeating the exact same mistakes that the Empire made, and this means that can sometimes come off as incompetent. Snoke was the biggest problem about the First Order (and I’m not talking about from a narrative standpoint here, although him not having a backstory doesn’t matter in the long run for the story being told in this trilogy, at least as far as I can tell thus far). Snoke talked a big game about rebuilding the Empire but doing it right this time, yet went on and on about wanting his own Vader. If he should’ve learned anything from Palpatine’s Empire, it’s that the Dark Side always betrays itself. Say goodbye to your torso, ask Maul where to get some replacement legs also, Snoke wasn’t nearly as powerful as anyone is led to believe. He’s got some flashy tricks, but at the end of the day he’s stuck in a chair most of the time and dies when getting sliced in half, if he was any sort of powerful he’d have survived getting sliced in half like Maul did, but anyway….

This mentality obviously progresses down into the generals, officers, and rank and file, where no one really learns from their mistakes. If they had, Starkiller would’ve been a base of operations, and nothing more, certainly not a system killer. Ironically, in Snoke’s failure and death, he’s created the tool that could (potentially) see a new Empire take hold of the galaxy in Kylo Ren.

This is pure speculation, but if Ren actually learns from Snoke’s failures (and his own on Crait), and he weeds out the nostalgic among the high ranking officers of the First Order, it could be a system of oppression that could exist for generations, possibly even after his passing (unless he figures out some sort of Force thing to extend his life). He already accomplished what Vader could not by surpassing his master and taking sole control. He is the Supreme Leader, and the possibilities for what he could do are endless.

While Kylo Ren (hopefully, again, we don’t know how IX will turn out) learned lessons and will chart a new course of action, the Resistance leaders have done the same. Finn and Rose (no matter if you agree on the execution of the sentiment, I for one didn’t like it) learned how to fight for each other. Poe learned how to be a true leader and not just a hero. This is obviously something he’s struggled with for a long time from what we’ve seen in Resistance and Episode VIII. Finally, Rey learned about the mistakes that the Jedi of old made, and she has the sacred texts. She can use the wisdom to grow a new Jedi Order not patterned after the original, and follow a path closer to that of Kanan Jarrus and Ahsoka Tano. They were by far some of the best defenders of the light, yet threw out the Jedi Code in many instances.

Episode VIII might not have been perfect, but it enhanced the ideas presented in Episode VII and sets the stage for a very exciting conclusion later this year.

And some of the points from both of you aren’t very good since you haven’t provided evidence beyond your say so. Copy/Paste clips from the film with timestamps to prove your points, please. Both of your are just saying “you’re wrong” without posting why beyond opinions in most cases.

The whole evacuation of D’Qar is a big one, for instance. There’s lines of dialogue to support both your cases.

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I understand what you’re saying, but I personally don’t think that the First Order is threatening as an antagonistic force. I can probably pull up some clips if need be later on, but I felt like a lot of the basis for how big a threat the first order is was spoken, rather than shown. Because you are right, the first order’s overconfidence and failure to learn from their mistakes has somewhat made them come across as incompetent.

This is one of the points I was trying to make, though it seems i have failed in that aspect

For reference and future sake(if this goes on), here’s the scene in question(at least most of it.)
https://youtu.be/9seFVJuzRSM

It’s more of a mix to me at least. We see that They can track through hyperspace without s tracker, that’s new and threatening. We see that they have the industrial power to create a base like starkiller, and were capable of destroying entire systems, but we’re just told dreadnaughts are capable of destroying fleets, and told the might of their army, which hasn’t been seen for the most part.

Nothing I say matters

I’m going to throw this out there sadly without anything to back it up as it is late and I’m very rusty on my Star Wars “lore,” but I direct all of you to the Cold War. How much verifiable proof was there that Russia had nukes trained on America? Not a whole lot. But the idea that they did was enough to spur nations to action and instill fear in the population.

The Empire and the First Order are similar. The Empire’s military might stemmed directly from the Clone Wars, which were engineered in part to create the army that would become the Imperial Military. Once the Clone Wars ended, the military budget went to creating bigger and more intimidating technology: AT-AT’s, Star Destroyers… the Death Star. All these were designed to function well as practical machines, but more importantly were meant to intimidate populations. The best war is the one you never had to fight.

While the Empire had verifiable military strength, the First Order appears to lack this strength. HOWEVER, given the sheer size of Snoke’s ship and the fact that Starkiller base existed, it is easy to assume that the First Order has MORE weapons and technology hidden away. The Point of Starkiller Base firing was not only to destroy the senate, and it certainly wasn’t meant as a weapon to destroy ALL opposition. No, like the Death Star it was a weapon designed to only need to be fired once - a Nuclear Option for entire star systems.

And guess what, they work like that. The first movie, only a small resistance exists against the “supposed threat” of the First Order. No one believes they are a threat. That non-threat just became the single biggest power in the galaxy with a single move - wiping out the Senate worlds. This is not the mark of an incompetent military, if anything It is incredibly smart. The First Order knows that in a fight against the entire galaxy they cannot win, not with the precedent set by both Death Stars years prior. They KNOW that grand weapons can fail to instill obedience, but that grand gestures seldom do. Would you risk everything you’ve ever known if not just your city, or your home, but your entire solar system could be wiped out like it never existed?

Probably not. Say what you will about the First Order’s tactics in individual skirmishes, but they’re taking a page from the Empire’s book. A page that was inspired by the Nazis and the Cold War. It’s not incompetence to hide your true military might. Rumors can be far more effective than the truth.


I know it’s a bit of a rant but given that Military Tactics and History are something of a passion of mine, this is one of those “couldn’t help myself from replying” moments.

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I liked how tlj felt despite its imperfections

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I’m just gonna bring up a few topics that TLJ to me, failed in:

  1. Luke is pessimistic whereas all other portrayals are optimistic.
  2. By defeating Phasma in the second film, Finn has completed his hero arc already.
  3. Rose is a pointless character, remove her and nothing really changes.
  4. The movie explores a grey area and gives the idea it’ll break starwars tradition but still ends with dark vs light.
  5. Lightspeed. Does. Not. Work. Like. That. In. Canon.
  6. The lightsaber battles seem “censored”, any strike on an individual does not remove limbs, only fleshwounds (insert Monty Python reference here).
  7. The entire Dreadnought scene.

I think that the studio side of the Starwars team wanted to correct some of the errors in the Force Awakens, complaints it had such as not seeing major military forces or that it was taking large elements from the Original trilogy. I think these are all legitimate and objective criticisms of the film.

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Rose is there to teach Finn the difference between fighting against something and fighting for something. I think that was a very important lesson for him to learn.

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Usually what happens when you fail to help your own nephew who turns super evil, kills your best friend/his father, and blows up an entire government system.

Not if Phasma isn’t dead…?

She was fun for the first three minutes she was in, and then she just helped Finn develop as a character.

I can see that.

Doesn’t matter, it looks cool.

I guess it does, because this is canon. Perhaps there is a period where the ship is still speeding up?

Um… Do you recall the mutilation of the Praertorian Guards?

Also, there was only one time two lightsabers connected in the movie, and that was in a flashback.

I really don’t want to have to debate about this, but it was one of my favorite parts walking out of the theater. It shows just how desperate some rebellions are.

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His father committed a number of atrocities under the galactic empire, yet he never faltered in the belief that there was good in him and would not kill him. Yet this whiny teenager…

Dun dun dun… :wink:

The problem with his arc is that in this film it’s “don’t run away, help us fight for something”, although that’s kinda like his development from the last film, too similar makes it fade into the mess.

The problem isn’t questioning if it’s canon, this canon contradicts previous canon, if it can be done, why only now?

Ah the praetorian guards, if you watch that scene closely, the choreography is actually off, they intentionally miss shot, 3 get knocked back with one kick from Rey (I guess we could say she used the force) and there’s a scene where the guard with 2 daggers has one of his weapons disappear. That scene falls apart if you notice the details.

What I was talking about was there’s a guard who gets cut in the leg and neck by Rey but a lightsaber should dismember him with the attacks Rey makes, instead it just nicks his armour.

I agree with this, desperation should be conveyed, however the Y-wings from the original trilogy were old and they can be seen in the prequels, using 50/60 year old ships can be desperate. The main issue I have with the scene is that bombs don’t work like that.

I will say the movie looks great though, I feel like I need to say something positive about it. Visually I did like it even if the scenes weren’t great, the praetorian guard scene is great to watch if you don’t focus on it and just let the movement and flow take you away.

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Phasma is going to come back, yell at Fin, fight Fin, and die without doing anything again.

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Which I’d be fine with on the fact that she gets more screen time

Her deleted scene is actually pretty great. Gives her a bit more character.

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The Praetorian Guard Armor is specifically designed to deflect slashing attacks from lightsabers, but is poorer against thrusts. Also, while Rey’s strike to the heck may have failed, Kylo makes an evidently better one when he literally beheads one of the guards while fighting off two more.

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What previous canon? Where in the movies does the contradict?

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I always though that hyperspace weapons weren’t used because of high velocity debris flying everywhich way. Holdo just did it out of desperation.

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…he had failed. He never failed Vader, his attachment to Luke and his mother overpowered the darkness inside. Kylo just hates everybody and everything.

The fact that they’re so similar makes it better. He’s struggling with the same debate. He never resolved it in the last movie, he maintained to be there “for Rey.”

There are many reasons/theories to this, the main one I believe is that it’s a huge waste of a good ship for a group as poor and desperate as the Resistance.

I also remember Kylo literally stabbing one through the face, so…

Bombs don’t fall and explode? I’m confused what you are saying here.

And since when has Star Wars cared about physics?

Oh, yeah, that was probably the best part of Last Jedi, easily.

And to add to the argument about Phasma’s fate, it feels necessary that there was a scene removed where she did survive, so anything is possible for the future.

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idk about you but i dont see ship lasers arcing in any other star wars media

The more you know I guess.

Hyperspace is not FTL, in previous starwars films the behavior of hyperspace has made that clear but in TLJ it’s used as FTL. The reason this is an issue is why did the Empire not make use of FTL weaponry? A sci-fi fan’s nitpick but still confusing that their engines suddenly work differently.

I have no issue with the loss of the ship or the desperation but, that is not how a ship in starwars does the thing it does.

It’s space, as sci-fi has evolved from the time of the original trilogy as has our understanding, bombs fall, not in space. That’s why Y-wing bombers used torpedoes and missiles not plain bombs.

So there could be a revenge of phasma arc? Not gonna lie, I’d like that.