Star Wars: The Last Jedi

[Traykar]

@Ace

he shows growth from the careless flyboy to a leader.

That was a stupid moral to begin with. Every in that Poe did was out of necessity. It would be stupid to frame it as him being incompetent for doing so.

@Ace

Last I checked it’s common sense to pull back a damaged ship after a battle

Maybe, but I would think they would have used the Fleet Killer to, well you know, kill the fleet. Also to note, the entire battle was orchestrated with plot convince in mind. The Resistance ships would explode if you looked at them wrong, Hux, a trained leader of a military, was distracted by Poe’s nonsense, and basically allowed the turrets to get destroyed. The Fact that literally no other ships were deployed to help defend the fleet killer at the start of the film. The fact that the fleet killer decided to destroy the unmoving base instead of the escaping resistance fleet.

@Ace

Weren’t you just complaining earlier that Rey made no mistakes to learn from?

There’s a difference between making mistakes and being the butt monkey of the plot.

[Holi]

@Traykar

Every in that Poe did was out of necessity.

He didn’t have to send Rose and Fin, he could have broke off after disabling the fleet killer’s defenses.

@Traykar

It would be stupid to frame it as him being incompetent for doing so.

It doesn’t frame him as incompetent, it shows that he’s reckless. There’s a difference.

@Traykar

Maybe, but I would think they would have used the Fleet Killer to, well you know, kill the fleet

If it did that there wouldn’t be a movie[quote=“Traykar, post:489, topic:20045”]
The fact that the fleet killer decided to destroy the unmoving base instead of the escaping resistance fleet
[/quote]

Destroying the base makes it so the resistance A. Cannot return in any significant manor, B. Destroys countless pieces of equipment, and C. There was still people there when they fired, so it would have taken them out if it was a second sooner.

@Traykar

The Resistance ships would explode if you looked at them wrong,

Turns out when you shoot a ship it explodes, who would have thought.

@Traykar

Hux, a trained leader of a military, was distracted by Poe’s nonsense, and basically allowed the turrets to get destroyed. The Fact that literally no other ships were deployed to help defend the fleet killer at the start of the film.

This is a genuine issue however

@Traykar

There’s a difference between making mistakes and being the butt monkey of the plot.

I’d disagree that he was, though due to his mistakes he develops then most as a character.

[Traykar]

@Ace

Destroying the base

The base isn’t going anywhere, it’s the majority of the fleet that’s getting away while they waste time with something that could be destroyed later to the same effect.

@Ace

I’d disagree

What does he do at the end of the film that makes him different from what he was at the beginning of the film.

@Ace

explodes

The only reason they had such a bad design was to kill a bunch of background characters and have Leia chew out Poe.

[Holi]

@Traykar

What does he do at the end of the film that makes him different from what he was at the beginning of the film.

Simple, he would have tried to fight off the first order at the beginning of the movie instead of leading the resistance away like he ended up doing

@Traykar

The only reason they had such a bad design

What’s bad about their designs? Their speed? They’re slowing down to get an accurate bomb drop. Their size? Look at their payload they have to be that big. Their durability? It’s a metal tube full of bombs, of course it’d explode if shot.

@Traykar

The base isn’t going anywhere, it’s the majority of the fleet that’s getting away while they waste time with something that could be destroyed later to the same effect.

They’re destroying everything about the resistance systematically, and they knew the fleet couldn’t escape

[Traykar]

So they blew up the thing that could definitely not get away against the thing that was getting away?[quote=“Ace, post:492, topic:20045”]
durability
[/quote]
It’s an warship, they’re supposed to be able to take a hit. Something made of glass would have lasted longer than those pieces of junk did.

[Holi]

@Traykar

So they blew up the thing that could definitely not get away against the thing that was getting away

In their eyes neither could get away

@Traykar

It’s an warship, they’re supposed to be able to take a hit. Something made of glass would have lasted longer than those pieces of junk did.

No, it’s a bomber and they had durability on par with other bombers from the franchise

[Traykar]

@Ace

other bombers

The B-wing is known as one of the sturdiest craft in Star Wars. [quote=“Ace, post:494, topic:20045”]
eyes neither
[/quote]

Maybe, but even if that was the case, one was all their enemies gathered in one place, and the other was an empty building. What would be the more important target?

[Holi]

@Traykar

The B-wing is known as one of the sturdiest craft in Star Wars.

The y-wing in particular is not, being taken out fairly easily in the other movies/shows

@Traykar

and the other was an empty building.

It wasn’t empty when they fired, and was still full of important equipment

[Traykar]

If the equipment was so important, they wouldn’t have left it to be destroyed. Everything that was actually important was taken with them. The Empty base will never be a more high profile target than the escaping fleet. Anywho, the Y wing has a way better fighting chance than the resistance bombers.[quote=“Ace, post:496, topic:20045”]
It wasn’t empty
[/quote]

Actually it was, go rewatch the scene.

[Holi]

@Traykar

Anywho, the Y wing has a way better fighting chance than the resistance bombers.

The y wing is more maneuverable, but doesn’t have a payload even comparable to the resistance bombs.

@Traykar

they wouldn’t have left it to be destroyed.

They were in an extreme hurry

@Traykar

Actually it was, go rewatch the scene.

When they fired the last few ships were still making their escape, and big it had been a moment sooner they wouldn’t have made it out

[Traykar]

The wouldn’t have made it out anyways if they had just fired on the fleet. The fleet is still a more important target than an empty base.

[Holi]

The base was the priority, they could catch the fleet, regardless of where it went

[Traykar]

The base was not the priority. The First order had come to destroy the Resistance, and the resistance wasn’t in the base. The base would not be number 1 on things to destroy.

[Holi]

It was, it prevents the resistance from returning, and forces them into a situation the first order had total control of, while also demonstrating their own power

[Traykar]

@Ace

returning

They can’t return if they’re all dead from being fleet killed.

@Ace

demonstrating their own power

This isn’t a good military strategy. You don’t have to impress people who are dead. [quote=“Ace, post:502, topic:20045”]
returning
[/quote]

Why would they even return?[quote=“Ace, post:502, topic:20045”]
total control
[/quote]

They already had total control of the situation. Them killing their enemies wouldn’t have caused them to lose control of the situation. Losing control of the situation implies that the resistance gained the upper hand. They can’t gain the upper hand if they’re dead.

It’s like Stalin said, “Death is the solution to all problems. No man, no problem.”

[Maarlfox]

What’s also important to keep in mind is that Poe’s “failure” at the start of the film isn’t even 100% his. Leia was the one in command of the Resistance Fleet, not Poe. Erego, one of two things happened; either Leia did not inform any of the other pilots that she wanted them to withdraw, which means that she did nothing to help them after telling Poe to come back, or she did tell them and they ignored her, which means that all of the pilots wanted to go through with the mission, and were all aware of what the consequences could be. Disobeying orders is the only thing Poe is at fault for here. The lives of those people are not on him. They’re either on Leia, if she did not tell them to retreat, or they’re on the pilots themselves, for going in despite Leia telling them not to. Poe was needlessly punished for something that was not his fault.

[Traykar]

Sorry, thought you were Ace for a sec.

[Holi]

@Traykar

They can’t return if they’re all dead from being fleet killed.

Whilst true it’s future proofing, others cells can’t head there and if anyone fled on ground they’re stuck PlanetSide with nowhere to return to

@Traykar

This isn’t a good military strategy. You don’t have to impress people who are dead.

Yeah, but it’s completely in the nature of the first order and the empire. At-ats, the deathstar, starkiller base, and this is all examples of the mindset.

@Traykar

They already had total control of the situation

With the dreadnaught being destroyed clearly they didn’t.

@Maarlfox

failure” at the start of the film isn’t even 100% his. Leia was the one in command of the Resistance

He could have pulled back the bombers, they were following him.regardless if she told them personally it’s not how a command structure works, the admiral tell the commander who tells his subordinates

@Maarlfox

Disobeying orders is the only thing Poe is at fault for here. The lives of those people are not on him.

If someone is under someone else’s command then yes those lives are on him

[Traykar]

@Ace

it’s future proofing

Maybe they should have written a better plot then. And this also means that you admit that bad decisions were made for plot convenience.

@Ace

With the dreadnaught being destroyed clearly they didn’t.

Again, more plot convenience. You already agreed that the First Order failing to scramble attack fighters was a mistep. And since you agree that the First order acted incompetantly, you can’t say that my what if scenerio where they acted like a competent military, and antagonistic force, is flawed because the First Order is incompetent. [quote=“Ace, post:507, topic:20045”]
completely in the nature of the first order and the empire.
[/quote]

Super weapons are not an excuse for brainless actions designed to force the plot to happen in a specific direction.

[Holi]

@Traykar

Super weapons are not an excuse for brainless actions designed to force the plot to happen in a specific direction.

They are not brainless it’s them being over confident

@Traykar

And since you agree that the First order acted incompetantly, you can’t say that my what if scenerio where they acted like a competent military, and antagonistic force, is flawed because the First Order is incompetent

Mistakes does not incompetence make. Unlike the failure to scramble fighters there is reasoning(regardless of if you like it or not) behind firing upon the base

@Traykar

And this also means that you admit

How? The first order future proofing a site isn’t bad reasoning. Not destroying bases regardless of occupation is what caused them to fail at wiping out the resistance.

@Traykar

This isn’t a good military strategy. You don’t have to impress people who are dead.

To go back to this, why didn’t the empire use a more effective vehicle on hoth? It’s to demonstrate their power

Instead of this they could have probably used either of these

And have destroyed that rebellion cell a lot more effectively, or even entirely. The point here is even since the empire the first order’s philosophy is to intimidate then destroy.