Star Wars Topic

Entertainment Movies
955

I could likely go into another essay just by responding to all of this. I agree with a lot of your ideas and opinions, but I also look at things a bit differently, too. I’ll hit some of the big points I want to respond to:

I would honestly argue that the Bionicle fanbase is one of the tamest fanbases I’ve ever seen on the large scale. We have our debates, our discussions, but at the end of the day, we can all join together under the livestream of the Biocraft film and join to type “BAN MARKUTA” into the chat. I mean, one of the three virtues is unity, something we have. The fanbase is both diverse yet unified, and Star Wars does not have that ability.

You can almost define a Star Wars fan by which trilogy they tend to prefer. I myself could be defined as a prequels fan, which I often am assaulted for. I have a few friends who are also prequels fans, and a few friend who are OT fans, and a friend who is a sequels fan (we frequently bash on him, so I’m not saying that I’m clean of Star Wars fanbase bloodshed).

Bionicle works differently, because while I am an '07 fan, I also am a All-Year fan, and find not a single year completely worthless. I have my dislikes and my preferences, and I will debate over them (Toa Inika = bad, Toa Mahri = good), but at the end of day, I am overall a Bionicle fan, not a particular year. I know you could make an argument for G1 VS G2, but that’s still much less division that Prequels VS OT VS Sequels VS Legends VS Rebels VS Clone Wars VS Spinoffs (the last two of which I could also declare myself a fan of). The Star Wars fanbase constantly seeks to kill itself, which is awful because it makes me want to enjoy spending time with Star Wars fans less. I even kind of gave up on Star Wars for a bit, until the Mandalorian came out.

I’m not actually sure whether or not I can agree with this. I enjoy every Star Wars movie, and therefore I still have a positive opinion of each, but that’s when they stand alone. If I move them to compare with each other, that’s when I appear to dislike some movies.

[details=Star Wars movies I don’t like compared to the others and why because I wanted to write this down but you guys probably don’t want to read it]I have seen ANH so many times and heard about it so many times that I feel as if all the fun and color have vanished from it. I say it’s my least favorite film, not because I don’t like it, but because I don’t have a whole lot of fun watching it.

I totally see TFA looking so much like ANH that that one falls next in line, despite its few and mainly uninteresting differences.

And then, RoS I probably would not be so hard on if it wasn’t the last film of the Skywalker Saga. I wasn’t wanting Endgame. I was wanting a good, exciting finale, at least decent. I didn’t expect to have one, no, no, but I just wanted a fluid, fun movie and I did not see myself get that.[/details]

Whenever a line of expectation is built by the fans and the film does not meet or exceed it, no matter how good it is, it will likely be hated upon.

I believe each trilogy at least as something good going for it:

Prequels = Best stories (I know I’m going to get attacked for this one, I already have, but I truly believe the prequels have brilliant plots and could be fantastic if redone, my main problem with the films is the dialogue)

OT = Best reality (They turned out the best overall, despite an underwhelming plot if you strip away the characters, setting, really the only brilliant moment is the big twist everyone in the world knows)

Sequels = Best visuals (They really were good)

I truly believe haters should louder than lovers.

I may be being overly optimistic, but I think/hope this is true for all three prequels

Which makes absolutely no sense with his character, but then again, his character itself made no sense in the movie

THIS is what dooms films. But, not giving the fans what they want also dooms them.

I think the biggest flaw with the sequel trilogy is a flaw I see with so many Disney films that I am critical towards: they play the audience for nostalgia.

Force Awakens, they just re-skinned A New Hope, which certainly warrants debate, but I am not looking for an argument, merely a response to this. they used that nostalgia to make you like the movie… until people realized this and hated it for it.

Nostalgia is a weapon. It will make or break a film/product. In the cases of Star Wars, we can see where it fails, excluding a few instances such as the latest season of Clone Wars and the spinoff films. I still think Endgame handled fan service/nostalgia properly.

The trick about nostalgia is that I believe you can never make it the main attraction to your movie. If your film doesn’t stand good on its own, nostalgia will not support it. Nostalgia is a bonus.

No. The Prequels must reign supreme.

CLOSING THOUGHTS

I love Star Wars. I love a lot of it, I like another big chunk, I’m indifferent towards a bit, and I despise a part as well. The same thing goes with every franchise I’ve ever been invested in. I know I love different parts than other people, and I know that others hate the parts I love (especially this part), but I also know that my opinion is mine and that their opinion is theirs. I spoke with a friend of mine about RoS, and I, who didn’t really like it, could not, no matter how hard I would ever be able to try, be able to overcome his strongest argument for why it’s his favorite piece of Star Wars media of all time: “Well, I enjoyed the movie.” We have evidence, debates, and logic, but all of that can be trumped by opinion, regardless of how valid it is.

Star Wars for me has never, ever been about the movies. It’s tied for my favorite franchise of all time (or at least up there), and yet only one of the eleven (thirteen if you count Clone Wars film and Holiday Special) films makes it into my top ten favorite movies of all time (Rogue One hype). Star Wars has been about the world, which is why I prefer the Clone Wars and the Mandalorian and Jedi: Fallen Order to 10/11 movies. It’s just who I am. I love the aliens, the ships, the planets, the bounty hunters, the battles, so maybe that’s why I like the things I do about Star Wars.

TL;DR

  • Bionicle is far more united as a fanbase than Star Wars, my reasoning is explained above.

  • I enjoyed every Star Wars movie as a movie, but not every Star Wars movie as a Star Wars movie.

  • Every trilogy has at least something that makes it cool.

  • Hate shouts louder than appreciation.

  • Prequels are comin’ back…

  • Kylo Ren is weird

  • Film studios should focus a lot more on making a good movie over using the fans’ nostalgia against them, or else they will easily be trashed on (look at live action Lion King, if you want a clear example).

  • Prequels are great

  • Opinions will overpower logic, for better or for worse.

  • I like Star Wars as a world more than Star Wars as a set of films.

I guess that’s all I felt I needed to say. Oh, yeah, I should mention that nostalgia isn’t a massive factor into me liking or disliking Star Wars (it still is one, for sure), for all films except the Phantom Menace, which, as a kid, was my favorite of the four films I was able to watch, that and the OT. So, in other words, if Disney wants to play my nostalgia, put Jar-Jar into a bunch of things. I still like 'im.

Also Disney is garbage and should let Marvel and Star Wars and Pixar do their own thing.

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956

That’s one of the criticisms I’ve seen towards the sequel trilogy. The movies work on their own, but as a trilogy, it’s kinda shaky. And yeah, I guess I see where people are coming from here…

The whole point of his character is that he’s conflicted between the Light Side and the Dark Side.

Maybe if the next couple movies turned out better, then people would’ve been more forgiving of TFA playing on nostalgia. Then again, I’d argue that the prequels are also guilty of playing on nostalgia.

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957

I think the people who say the sequels/prequels are bad are the same people who grew up with the OG trilogy and don’t like how different the sequels/prequels changed up what they imagined the history and future to become and be like.

I personally think the prequels were pretty fantastic, and I love the sequels for all the cool new vehicles, weapons and troopers :stuck_out_tongue:
I mean sure the story isn’t as perfect as the Marvel universe or something but at the same time, you have to take into consideration the fact that star wars was made in the 1970s, so the story then probably was considered to be a little odd and maybe not that great as well.

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958

Gee, I was wondering why I got quoted in a topic I had never seen before

It’s a bit unfair to your argument to say my point translates seamlessly over to Star Wars. Anyone can pick up the movies and watch them, sometimes exactly the same way other people saw them. Remasters and fanmade restorations (and even derestorations) exist in large quantity. As well, anyone fond of the original Star Wars trilogy can rewatch the old movies with a fresh perspective and the ones I’ve spoken to who have done so often end up changing or refining their opinion of them.

Bionicle, however, is the stories you make with the sets. It’s the stories you tell and you alone experience. It’s as good as you remember because you wrote the entire story. That’s the point of my statement whereas your statement is “Nostalgia is a powerful tool and people are biased to a one-time thing” so it’s incorrect to quote me on this when my point has little to do with yours.

Regardless, bold move to start a debate topic with an essay and quote an almost year-old post (which makes me wonder how you came about making this topic - writing it first and then seeking the quote, or coming across the quote and making a topic around it).

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959

I didn’t base this entire thing around your quote. As I was writing it, I remembered your quote. The point I was trying to make was that people’s childhoods are experiences. The movies themselves are part of those experiences. As kids, people watch their movies over and over again, loving them to death. Then, when they get older, they realize the flaws of those movies. The movies can still be good, but the reason people hold them in such high regard is because they were part of an experience-something that they can’t experience again. That, good people, is nostalgia.

960

There are many reasons for this, or at least why it seems this is the case.

1: “good” is often the default. This is particularly true with large themes like Star Wars or Marvel. If I go to see a Star wars movie, I will like it by default, and if I don’t like it, there must be a reason.

  1. Most positive comments on a movie are fairly simple – “that was good, I liked it.” Negative comments, however, almost always explain why. “That movie was awful because ___.”

  2. If no one gives feedback, creators will continue doing what they did in the last one. If you liked the last one, you don’t need to say anything, then. But if you didn’t like it, you want to let them know that what they made was not to your liking.

  1. You’re equating “trying” with “succeeding”. Disney tried to make a movie fans would like. They did not succeed.
    Do or do not, there is no try. this contributes nothing to my point, I just had to quote that.
  2. Eight wasn’t bad because it was different. It was bad because it was bad. If eight had been different and good… Well, some people would still complain because it was different, but not to the extent it got.
  3. This may seem harsh, but: if Disney, or whatever director, made a bad movie, that’s their fault, not the fans. Disney kept trying to change things based on the criticism of the sequal trilogy, but it failed because it was still bad. At least to some people – I know people who loved the sequal trilogy.

Also, I hate the sequels because IX wasn’t called From His Nap.

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961

Correct! Because it was impossible to please the fans. No matter what they did, there would still have been backlash.

True, but in this situation, Disney was actively trying to give the fans what they wanted, based on the immense outcry and criticisms. And the fans berated Disney for trying to give them what they wanted.

That would’ve been pretty funny…

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962

The fact that people like things such as The Mandalorian, Rouge One, or even Doctor Aphra is proof that Star Wars fans can in fact like things that are made by Disney. You argument implies that fans won’t like anything that isn’t the original trilogy, but that simply isn’t the case.

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963

I’ve seen this argument a lot, and once agreed with it. I don’t anymore, because I’ve realized that it isn’t true…

TLJ does a great job of convincing its viewers that it’s not a rehash of other Star Wars films, but it is. It’s ESB with a little bit of ROTJ thrown in (down to the fact that there are numerous scenes which are 1:1 copies of moments from both of those films, such as Snoke showing Rey the plight of the fleeing Resistance Fleet, to the Battle of Crait being a redo of Hoth, but at the end of the movie instead of the beginning).

The attempts to subvert expectations in TLJ fail because they are intended to subvert, to take a scenario we’ve already seen before and do the exact opposite, regardless of whether or not the opposite is narratively coherent. Granted, much of this is the result of the retrospectively flimsy foundation TFA provided, but a lot of it also has to do with Rian Johnson’s seemingly deliberate attempt to turn Star Wars on its head, rather than trying to make a good movie first, and then add in subversive elements later.

I wouldn’t frame this as a matter of doubt–there was no plan. This is practically indisputable given the testimonies we’ve had from actors, writers, and the directors/producers themselves. And as much as I agree with you that toxicity is a problem in the Star Wars fandom, the fact of the matter is that Disney and Lucasfilm bungled the Sequel Trilogy to an incredible degree, one which is far worse than any damage Lucas did with the Prequels. The Prequels are bad films technically, but they have heart, soul, and a story that makes sense. The Sequel Trilogy is a soulless mess, because it seems that the people behind it believed that–because they were making Star Wars movies that weren’t the Prequels–they could do minimal work and make maximum profit. They were lazy, uncoordinated, and, quite frankly, incompetent in their handling of the entire trilogy.

I think this is true in some cases, but many other people with more nuanced opinions get lumped into this “toxic” group by other fans simply for disliking things that are objectively poorly made. Are there many people who wanted Sequels that felt like the Originals? Yes. But as you’ve stated, Disney made films that basically adhered to that, and they’ve now been panned by many fans. Why? Because there’s an undercurrent here that is easy to lose sight of when we consider things merely in terms of whether fans want nostalgia or freshness. What is the ultimate answer?

It’s this. Fans don’t really want either of those things. They want quality. Quality, of course, comes in many different forms, but at the end of the day, whether a story is rehashed and cliche or fresh and subversive, it will only have broad appeal if it’s good.

I expected more out of the Sequels than hollow fan service and flimsy plots that emphasized spectacle over story, because even the Prequels, which are dicey, tried to satisfy both of those parts of me. The Sequels assumed that they could bait me with flashy fights, good acting, and a manufactured feeling of nostalgia, and for a few years, they did. But there’s nothing underneath them, and I can’t blame that solely on Disney’s attempts to “please” everyone. I blame it on what I see–a flawed and haphazard approach to making a trilogy which would have been better from the start if its creators had done even a bit more outlining and communication. “Pleasing” fans has little to do with executing the basic aspects of cinema competently, so I find it hard to swallow the idea that this is a situation created mainly by the fans.

Ultimately, I agree with your main argument. Everyone should be allowed to like what they like without having to be badgered into agreeing with others under the threat of being branded a “fake fan.” That’s not what I’m here to do, and that’s not what intelligent people do when sharing their opinions. But I’m wary of suggesting that people should be asked to keep negative opinions to themselves in order to prevent these kinds of arguments. No work of art is exempt from criticism, no matter how toxic the voices that surround it.

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964

Something that I seem to be the only one who’s noticed: the prequels are rehashed plots from the originals, too.

Let’s start with the first movie of the trilogy. In both cases, we open with two good guys on an enemy ship, who end up escaping to the planet below. Later on, those two good guys are involved in rescuing the main female character of the trilogy. Then there’s a young Skywalker boy on Tatooine, who, thanks to the Jedi he sees as a mentor figure, gets his chance to leave the planet for a better life. Later on, his Jedi mentor is killed by an evil Sith lord, but the Skywalker boy gets a chance to blow up a big bad guy thing in space. And then there’s a celebration.

Now for the second movie of the original and prequel trilogies. In both cases, the movie has a major action sequence that leads to the main characters being split up: one goes off to do Jedi stuff, and the other hides from the bad guys while undergoing a love story. Then, when one group of main characters in captured by the bad guys, the Skywalker boys recklessly goes to save them, which results in him getting his arm cut off. Oh, and there’s a bounty hunter whose last name is Fett causing trouble every now and then. And a space battle in an asteroid field.

And the third movie. We begin with the good guys on a mission to rescue their friend/ally from a bad guy who’s introduced in this movie (unless you count the Special Edition of A New Hope). Then, after the rescue, we return to the main war at hand. And all the while, Emperor Palpatine is trying to coerce the Skywalker boy into joining the Dark Side.

Are the prequels carbon copies of the originals? No. But frankly, I’m surprised that no one else has noticed what I have. Really, copying plots of earlier movies has always been a thing in Star Wars.

I’ve been told that the Disney executives did have a rough plan…before Rian Johnson decided to do his own thing, and J. J. Abrams tried to course-correct.

That’s not my point. If you don’t like a specific Star Wars movie or trilogy, that’s perfectly fine. But what isn’t perfectly fine is when you try to force everyone to be on your side and your side only.

Which they tried to give us. The Force Awakens was a way of saying “Hey, it’s cool, we can make a movie that feels like Star Wars.” The Last Jedi was the first case where they were actually giving us a movie that didn’t rely on nostalgia, but of course his methods didn’t go over well with everyone. Which brings me to my next point…

I’m not saying it’s entirely the fans’ fault for the movies’ quality. What I’m saying about the fans is that their pointless vitriol had an influence on the filmmakers. The Star Wars fanbase is so toxic, the toxicity seeped into the people that were actually making the movies. Now, the filmmakers’ decisions are still ultimately theirs, but they were faced with a daunting task-pleasing millions of fans that, if even the tiniest thing was wrong, would bash them with endless hate. Let’s see you try and accomplish a task like that.

Am I defending the sequel trilogy? Maybe. I’m personally a fan of it. As you hinted, there are reasons to like it-the visuals, the acting, and the music. I also find enjoyment in the characters and their interactions, and I also find the storylines to be enjoyable. Plus, it’s still better than a lot of the original EU nonsense.

But my main point is, the toxicity of the fanbase is what’s ruined the franchise. Do we have a right to criticize content creators when their work disappoints us? Of course. But we have no right to attack others based on their opinions.

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965

Do you feel attacked?

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966

Thank high heaven, I haven’t been attacked based on my opinions. But the flamewars I’ve witnessed are ugly to say the least.

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967

Absolutely. But unlike the Sequels, they managed to inject a coherent and compelling story into their rehashed basic plots, because they had Lucas’ vision of the hero’s journey behind them. The Sequels rehash the Originals mostly to gain fans who were left jaded by the Prequels, but they do little to no work to flesh out any of the characters or conflicts that they create within their reformatted structure, which is why they’re riddled with plot holes and inconsistencies.

Obviously their plan wasn’t too set in stone, then, if they allowed a director whom they hired to completely deviate from it and then leave almost no threads for the final film to pick up with…

I agree. But where is the line between “offering criticism” and “forcing everyone to be on your side?” I have seen many defenders of the Sequels accuse “haters” of being “toxic” and “salty” for offering simple, justifiable criticisms. I have also seen Sequel haters dismiss honest attempts at defending the Sequels. Both sides, in these cases, assume that everyone with an opinion about the Sequels is trying to force that opinion on everyone else, which isn’t true.

I agree that there’s a lot of toxicity in the Star Wars fandom. And yes, the task of pleasing millions is daunting. But is it impossible? No…and we should expect seasoned film producers like Kathleen Kennedy to understand the nature of criticism vs. toxicity. The 2008 Clone Wars series faced a lot of backlash in its first few seasons. But its creators weathered that criticism, and now the show is almost universally acclaimed. Why should professional filmmakers be allowed more slack for their failures than a small team of creators for a pet project TV Show?

I agree that it played a role. But I disagree that it’s the sole cause. Regardless of fan toxicity, Disney contributed a remarkably inconsistent trilogy. Their decision to not plan ahead was not one the fans had any influence over, as that kind of decision would have been made long before the Sequels came out. Had there been a real plan for this trilogy, it would have been better by default, even though negativity would have undoubtedly existed. The fact that fans are going to react negatively to some choices you make doesn’t justify going into a huge project with no plan–or, even worse, with a vague plan that you then allow your own employees to ruin…

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968

By “offering criticism,” you’re basically just stating what you feel didn’t work and, in some cases, what you think can be done to improve in the future. And you also respect other people’s opinions. This is what I, as a fan, try to do. But by “Forcing (pun slightly intended) everyone to be on your side,” that’s when you go at someone whose opinion differs from yours and say “U SUK YOU’RE NOT A REEL FAN YOUR WRONG ABOUT THIS MOVEE!”

…

I didn’t say they should. Yes, the criticisms toward the sequel trilogy have been valid. Like I said, I’m a fan of the sequel trilogy. But the one criticism I agree with is that, had Disney stuck to their original plan (however vague it may have been), then the movies would’ve turned out better.

And yet the fans just don’t stop trashing the creators, because they demand perfection. No matter what happens, there will still be hate. And the way the filmmakers take it…well, all things considered, I think it goes both ways. The filmmakers should put their best feet forward in their production, and the fans should stop being so toxic that their hate comments bleed out of each other’s ears.

You know, Christopher Nolan did say that he was literally making up the Dark Knight trilogy as he went. But then again, that trilogy ended up being consistent, so…your point is proven, I guess?

Again: they were only changing the plan because they wanted to conform to what the fans wanted. But, whether they could’ve stuck to the original plan while still doing that…that debate could go on for a while.

969

I for one despise the sequel trilogy and love Star Wars Resistance? What does that make me?

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970

A monster :stuck_out_tongue:

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971

I’m just going to respond to some things that were responses to my post. I could go on, but I won’t.

That’s something I see (besides Rise of Skywalker, I know people blame Last Jedi for it being bad, but I really think it could have been handled much better within the actual movie), but I was just saying in comparison to all of Star Wars. Star Wars is a great franchise (not a great fanbase), and I feel the sequels just didn’t compare. Especially since we have films like Rogue One that prove that Disney 100% can make good Star Wars films.

That’s not what I mean. In Last Jedi, Snoke calls Kylo Ren a “child in a mask,” so in frustration to Snoke’s disappointment, Red smashes the mask. Then, after Snoke is killed, he remakes the mask? Why, because no one was telling him he was a child anymore? Kylo Ren’s entire character feels very forced and weird between the three movies.

This is actually quite likely. I liked the Last Jedi and all, but as a whole, the sequel trilogy is easily my least favorite.

In what way? They were hated because they didn’t fit the image the audience had built around Star Wars. I grew up with both the prequels and the OT, so my image of Star Wars always incorporated both parts.

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972

That doesn’t make you a bad person or anything like that. That’s your opinion.

Kylo Ren’s character is that he wants to be the greatest Dark Side user in existence. When Snoke told him that that wasn’t possible, Kylo Ren smashed his helmet out of frustration. This was also supposed to represent his conflict in the movie. By the end, he had chosen the Dark Side. Him repairing his helmet in the next movie represents his embracement of the Dark Side.

Well, think about it. The original trilogy was a major success, and making more movies was a way of capitalizing on their success. And the movies’ appeal was “Darth Vader, an iconic villain. How’d you like to see his origin story?” Not to mention, there was a truckload of fanservice-Jango Fett and his son Boba, the fact that Anakin was the one who built C-3PO, Yoda’s presence, the entire ending scene of Episode III, the Clone Wars being based off of one throwaway line of Episode IV, the hologram of the Death Star plans in Episode II, a young Owen Lars…the list just keeps on going.

973

I agree. But I do also tend to see a lot of reasonable critics of the Sequels getting branded as these types of haters unjustifiably. The Internet is a place where people tend to lose their sense of grayness for a more black-and-white approach. Therefore, even someone who points out obvious flaws can be labelled as a hateful troll by people who are equally as biased, but just on the opposite side. However, you’re absolutely right that no one should be calling anyone a fake fan for their opinions.

Some fans have this attitude, but others don’t. Someone people’s constant criticisms might appear to be demands for perfection when they’re really demands for a higher standard. That’s the one thing I dislike about criticism nowadays (and it goes back to the whole black-and-white thing on the Internet): most people now fall into one of two camps, the camps of defending the Sequels relentlessly in the face of criticism, and of trashing them mercilessly in the face of arguments that highlight some of their strengths. While I personally find more weakness in them than strength, there are elements of the trilogy (the basic ideas for the new characters, for instance) that I do like, and would have been fine with if they had been done to a higher standard of craftsmanship.

Christopher Nolan is a far better writer than most of the people Disney hired, and even though his trilogy is meant to be watched as a whole, the individual films can function as standalones. The Sequels were never meant to do so, and thus they required a far more consistent vision to make them work.

I disagree, because as we’ve said before, TLJ was–at the very least–an attempt to be subversive. If the plan was to cater to fans, why let Rian Johnson make such a deliberately out-of-the-box film that was sure to create division?

And besides, changing the plan in order to cater to fans is obviously not going to result in any consistency. I agree that many problems in the Sequels resulted from a desire to please everyone, but there are fundamental issues beneath that impulse which doomed them from the start to begin with. The Story Team, for one, had almost no interaction with the filmmakers, to the point that the new canon is now almost just as inconsistent and choppy as the EU. Even the directors of the films themselves failed to communicate, with Rian Johnson admitting that he didn’t even read TFA’s script prior to writing TLJ. Colin Trevorrow’s leaked script for Episode IX indicates that he was attempting to work from TLJ’s resolution, but he was inexplicably fired, leading to the mess we got in TROS.

On the issue of how fan toxicity at least partially influenced the course of the trilogy, I agree with you. But I cannot trace everything Disney has done solely back to their desire to please fans when I see clear evidence that there were serious errors in the management of this trilogy that have nothing to do with fan response, and everything to do with a lack of communication among various people in the company.

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974

This topic has been discussed to death but I’ll put my 2 cents here.

I agree more or less here. Yes, there were a lot of toxic fans online that were awful and certainly didn’t help this trilogy be a cohesive set of films. But you can’t blame it all on them, there were some missteps from the beginning.

I’ll say upfront that I actually did enjoy the Sequel trilogy quite a bit, even though they do have a lot of problems. But I cannot deny the trilogy wasn’t poorly handled, especially the way it all wraps up.

The way RoS was handled and a lot of SW content in general leaves a similar feeling that I had with how Bionicle G2 ended. I just don’t want to hear about it anymore. At the very least for a while I need a break until I can enjoy good things for what they are again. The good news is that we have Mandalorian and Clone Wars had a great ending. So, we know there is still some good things. But with a combination of having no plan for a huge franchise of films and a toxic fan base, a lot of people are just gonna throw their hands up in the air and say they’re done.

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