The name "Toa Cordak" does not make any sense.

[ToaKebaka]

Disclaimer: This topic discusses one specific case of trivia canonization, NOT the process in general. Please keep your anti-Greg comments away from here. Thank you.

In late 2014, the name of what was up to that point known as “The first Toa team”, was canonized by Greg to be “Toa Cordak”. This was of course a fan suggestion and the reasoning behind it is the following:

With rumors spread through the Matoran Universe about the decimation of the Toa Cordak, a new, pejorative use of the word “Cordak” became prevalent: “desolation”.

On the surface level it seems alright - a reuse of an old, already legalized term introduced in the same year as the leader of this team. Nothing out of place right?

That is only until you start thinking about the logic of it in a larger scale of the narrative…

Lets start simple:
Lesovikk, Nikila and six others were the first to decide of their own accord to work together as a cohesve unit. There wasn’t any reason for them to add any attributes to their name to differentiate from other such groups - there weren’t any.

It only makes perfect sense to name this novelty simply a “Toa Team”. So in matoran this would be “Toa [insert matoran word for team]”.
Or even better, if we go by the three Virtues: “Toa Unity” (again, we don’t have matoran equivalent).

Second point:

If the meaning of Cordak being dessolation only became prevalent after their deaths, there had to be an original meaning to Cordak. What happened to that?
What if somebody needs to use the original meaning of Cordak in a sentence - does it become a point of major misunderstanding because the other side thinks you are speaking offensive terms?

Or worse, if the original meaning of Cordak is indeed team or unity (as it logically should be), you have a situation where every single Toa Team and by extension one of the Three Virtues is constantly being referred to by an obscene term.

So what is the deal with Cordak’s original meaning? Was the word just so not important, that its new meaning didn’t impact everyday life?
Obviously not seeing as it was important enough for Lesovikk to name his team after it!

This is how things really should have gone:

• The first toa team is formed and is named "Toa [matoran for team or unity]

• Cordak is already a word for dessolation

• Zyglak massacre happens, and the word spreads across the universe

• People start calling the first Toa team by a new name “Toa Cordak” in reference to their fate being dessolation

• They never speak of them as they used to, since they did not have a specialized name in the first place - they are forevermore Toa Cordak

Now everything is safe and sound and “Toa Cordak” still gets to be a thing, just for a better reason.

Hopefully now you see, why Toa Cordak, as it is right now, is one of the more absurd things to make it into canon.
I do not know who came up with the original idea, and I do not mean to speak ill of them, but perhaps they should have given this one a little more thought.

[Krelikan]

While I could probably make some arguments as to why it does kind of work, I think you’re right. It has more holes than patches.

[Winger]

@ToaKebaka

There wasn’t any reason for them to add any attributes to their name to differentiate from other such groups - there weren’t any.

yes, but keep in mind that this is after there’ve already been 3 different sets of Toa characters in 6 different forms (Mata, Nuva, Metru, Hordika, Inika, Mahri), and the line’s target audience are people who might not care so much about the canon and just want to collect the sets. What kid wants to be like “And here are the might TOA INIKA! And over there are the first toa team ever.” And their friend is like “but wait aren’t those the new sets?” and then the first friend goes off about the whole story of the sets and the other ones like “Mkay nerd”.

Definitely not speaking from experience.

@ToaKebaka

So what is the deal with Cordak’s original meaning? Was the word just so not important, that its new meaning didn’t impact everyday life? Obviously not seeing as it was important enough for Lesovikk to name his team after it!

It doesn’t necessarily have to have meant anything in the first place. “A new use of the word” doesn’t mean that it originally had any other meaning other than “Toa team with Lesovikk and Nikila”.

@ToaKebaka

Or worse, if the original meaning of Cordak is indeed team or unity (as it logically should be), you have a situation where every single Toa Team and by extension one of the Three Virtues is constantly being referred to by an obscene term.

This is purely your own extrapolation. There’s zero evidence that “Cordax” originally meant “Unity”.

@ToaKebaka

but perhaps they should have given this one a little more thought.

Why? It’s a cool name for kids’ toys. I somehow don’t see them thinking “hm, you know what? There’s probably going to be people upset with the plot reasons for this, let’s not use it.”

[ToaKebaka]

@Winger

yes, but keep in mind that this is after there’ve already been 3 different sets of Toa characters in 6 different forms (Mata, Nuva, Metru, Hordika, Inika, Mahri), and the line’s target audience are people who might not care so much about the canon and just want to collect the sets. What kid wants to be like “And here are the might TOA INIKA! And over there are the first toa team ever.” And their friend is like “but wait aren’t those the new sets?” and then the first friend goes off about the whole story of the sets and the other ones like “Mkay nerd”.

Definitely not speaking from experience.

The sets do not apply to this at all. I am talking about story. (And even if - like I said the name was given 4 years after end of G1+only Lesovikk was ever a set)

@Winger

It doesn’t necessarily have to have meant anything in the first place. “A new use of the word” doesn’t mean that it originally had any other meaning other than “Toa team with Lesovikk and Nikila”.

It is not impossible, but not very likely for reasons I stated in the original post. I could put many things as an analogy here: imagine you make a new invention - first you have to describe what it is (a car), only then do you even start to think of a brand (Kia). Or you find a new species - you first name the species, then give an individual a pet name.

@Winger

This is purely your own extrapolation. There’s zero evidence that “Cordax” originally meant “Unity”.

It is, I said as much myself. It would make the most sense in the current official scenario. But that is the “even worse” option. It doesn’t make sense even if it meant something else.

@Winger

Why? It’s a cool name for kids’ toys. I somehow don’t see them thinking “hm, you know what? There’s probably going to be people upset with the plot reasons for this, let’s not use it.”

Again, sets have nothing to do with this. Yes it is a cool name for a set feature - Cordak blaster - but we are speaking about a repurposing for a different reason, 7 years after its introduction, in a way that did not consider if it actually made sense.

–
Of course you could create some sort of outlandishly convoluted construct of justifications, just so that it makes sense, but you can do that with anything. The whole thing woud just end up an even bigger mess.

Surely you must see how nonsensical the current official explanation is.

[Winger]

@ToaKebaka

Surely you must see how nonsensical the current official explanation is.

idk, makes sense to me: The Toa Cordak. The Toa Cordak are annihilated. “Cordak” takes on a new meaning reflective of that. Done and done. What it meant before doesn’t exactly matter, if it meant anything at al.

[Vile_Cephalopod]

@ToaKebaka

imagine you make a new invention - first you have to describe what it is (a car), only then do you even start to think of a brand (Kia). Or you find a new species - you first name the species, then give an individual a pet name.

Neither of these analogies actually fit the action they are analogous to: Naming a team.
The first ever Toa team wasn’t a new invention, or a discovery. The concept of teamwork predates Toa teams, so the Cordak wouldn’t have to use a name that explains what a team is. A more appropriate example would be naming a band, or a sports team.
Groups are named for posterity, not to explain the concept of a group. The original meaning of “Cordak” is whatever the Toa Cordak wanted to be remembered for. However, their deeds and demise are now more famous than the original meaning.
For a real-world example, take the Japanese Kamikaze units from WWII. Kamikaze directly translates as “divine wind,” and has been used historically to refer to a series of typhoons which saved Japan from invasion. The name was given to the Japanese Navy’s special attack units as an honor, because they were giving their lives to save Japan. Nowadays, it is used to refer to self-destructive acts, because of the tactic the word has become associated with. If somebody named a weapon the “Kamikaze Blaster,” you would expect it to be incredibly dangerous to both user and target.
Tl;Dr: Groups are named for historical significance, both historical significance and the meaning of words will change over time, ergo the name “Toa Cordak” makes sense.

[Styrofoam]

Language is a complicated thing, and I think there may have been some things overlooked in the original post.
How much can human linguistic principles be overlaid onto the Matoran Universe? Some can; we know languages evolve over time as evidenced by Sidorak’s use of an archaic curse (somewhere in the books; I can find it if necessary), and we know there are multiple languages spoken throughout the GSR: Skakdi, a shared flying Rahi language, visorak, matoran, etc. Not to mention regional dialects such as Chutespeak. On earth, languages are notably distinct and divergent in isolated territories (namely islands), so this is also worth considering, as our knowledge of MU inter-island trade habits and interaction is quite limited; Kanoka Disks took several THOUSAND years to reach Metru Nui, the most affluent region in the MU, and they were discovered independently in any case. So cultural cross-contamination across islands seems to be pretty minimal, and this is a good indicator that languages could have diverged radically in the many many millennia in which the GSR is up and running.

@Vile_Cephalopod makes many good points about the speculation of the original meaning of “cordak”—the kamikaze analogy is great. Moreover, the argument that the first toa team would need to be named literally isn’t strong enough. Cordak could easily be the name of something else, even a place. Perhaps the unnamed island in which they first convened was named cordak, perhaps even a minor village on the unnamed island, and Toa Cordak means “Heroes of this particular island”. Of course, lands are named for a variety of reasons—geography, important features or events, historic populations, etc (Great Britain so named, for example, from roman “britannia”, and the Great to distinguish it (though there is debate) from French Brittany). In such a case, the word mightbe traced back beyond the great beings, to the murky past of spherus magna. Do I believe this is the case? No way of knowing, though it has as much evidence as the proposed theory, which is to say, nothing concrete.
As for the second point about linguistic vagueness, yes, it might possibly be vague (again, not for certain). But, we have tons of that in the real world as well: Nails mean fingernails as well as metal nails; arm can mean an arm or to arm oneself with a weapon, rent can mean both to be the renter and the client. Yet, native speakers have little problem deciphering the meaning based on context clues, and with such a specific word as desolation, I imagine it would be even easier, if indeed the original meaning is still even operative.
You did ask to reign in any anti-Greg-answer sentiments, so I’ll do my best. There are many things to dislike about his supplementary canonizations (Kanoka disk chronology as mentioned above, among other things), but this is one I don’t have a particular problem with.

[TheJerminator]

@ToaKebaka

It only makes perfect sense to name this novelty simply a “Toa Team”. So in matoran this would be “Toa [insert matoran word for team]”.

Not really. There could have been some important event that drew them together that they later based their name off of.

@ToaKebaka

Or worse, if the original meaning of Cordak is indeed team or unity (as it logically should be), you have a situation where every single Toa Team and by extension one of the Three Virtues is constantly being referred to by an obscene term.

How? No other team is ever referred to as “Cordak”. Did you just do a really bad job of explaining yourself?

@ToaKebaka

Of course you could create some sort of outlandishly convoluted construct of justifications, just so that it makes sense,

Isn’t that what you just did with this whole theory? You made up most of your explanation.

I would just chalk it up to “Cordak” being some backwater village that the team started in that never gets mentioned because it isn’t important.

Or maybe it was a more important place that was later destroyed/abandoned.

Or maybe Cordak was the name of a Matoran who suggested they team up.

My point is that there are plenty of reasons they could be called “Cordak” besides it meaning “team”.

@ToaKebaka

Surely you must see how nonsensical the current official explanation is.

Not really. Your entire argument is based on the premise that the first team would have to name themselves after the word “team”, which is simply not true.