Toa Hagah Canon Contest Format Feedback

[Mesonak]

@Dag

I want to give the benefit of the doubt, but my patience is really being tested when you and Eljay, as TTV members, who are in charge of how to run these contests, intentionally misconstrue my argument (I say intentionally because surely there’s no way you missed that long of a post) and have the audacity to ask “what’s the point”. Granted, as I explained yesterday, the original intention of the MOC was pointless, but the build does have relevancy in these Hagah contests, as better demonstrated by my Kualus MOC. I will not stand idly as you make a strawman of my argument and then decide to lean towards banning custom builds as if you aren’t aware of any good arguments for them.

First off, apologies if you felt like we strawmanned, disrespected, or misinterpreted your points. Sans outright reading every single post in this topic verbatim, accurately representing every possible POV with pinpoint accuracy would be impossible within our timeframe. I opted instead to highlight not only individual posts, but posts which were the source of discussion on a larger scale. Your Vakama, for instance, like you say, was not directly relevant or created as a response to these Hagah contests, much like WholesomeGadunka’s MoC also was not. However, these MoCs became the source of larger discussions and so they were discussion worthy because it addressed swathes of people in one go.

I happened to really like your suggestion even if I don’t personally relate to the need for it, as I think it’s a fair compromise between the points and I appreciated that you were being constructive in the topic. As such, I don’t really appreciate the vitriol being spewed or talking down to me as if I’m a child who needs to go sit in the corner. Eljay and I both can readily admit that we are not MoCists, so we’re not approaching this from a MoCist perspective.

As such, to US, this seems pointless (important distinction there), because what you can achieve in 60 pieces can generally be achieved in 5 with very minor borderline indiscernible differences. That does not mean, however, that your line of thinking is pointless, because at the end of the day it matters to you and how you build and how you express yourself, and you have just as much of a voice as anybody in these whole proceedings. I think we made that pretty clear, and I still believe that.

To address your post specifically, the images were not specifically used because the discussion was brief and the only thing I personally felt was relevant to the bigger picture at hand was the dimensions. which I was able to satisfactorily explain without posting 6 different images. With respect, if we had discussed this image for instance in depth:

https://i.imgur.com/v2cx3Kg.jpg

You probably wouldn’t have been happy with our tone because we probably would have laughed at it. A lot. Not for the purpose of belittling you, but because from our unique perspective as non MoCists whose primary concern is canon… the difference here is, again, borderline nonexistent. I get what you’re trying to convey, truly, and from a MoCists perspective you’re 100% correct. I think you adequately made your case for why the idea is solid, I presented it as such, and we’re fairly considering it based on all the points you made. But I take heavy issue with the assertion that we somehow “strawmanned” your argumentation, because nothing in your essay makes me, as a non MoCist, understand it any more. It still seems like way more work than it’s worth (both in terms of creation on the part of the builder, enforcement on the part of the moderators, and potential for bending the rules on behalf of the community) for results that are barely different from using a standard Metru torso.

Again, to directly respond to your essay:

virtually no creativity is possible.

And I’m the tooth fairy.

Again, I’m sorry if you feel offended. We seriously didn’t mean to, and I appreciate all the work you’ve put into discussing this.

[Keplers]

That’s exactly my point, though. The Hagah do have a very strictly predefined build, and there’s little to say the voters and builders will all acknowledge that. Helryx’s build was at least defined as recognizable to a Toa, and yet the second-place valid entry was commonly compared to a Vortixx or even a video game model.

[TheJerminator]

@Keplers

those last two were staples of the Metru build as a whole

Being the only available option at the time isn’t really a “staple”.

@Mesonak

the different here is, again, borderline nonexistant.

As you said, to you.

To me, that difference is noticeable, and something that I would try to achieve if it were my MOC.

[Kodiak]

@SubParFauxPas

Just putting this out there.
(Literally what’s the point?)

I don’t see how using an overly complex build that foregoes consistency (with the other hagah), functionality (gear mechanism), simplicity and ease of replicability (just 2 pieces) for the sake of attaching an armour piece .5L closer to the chest is favourable here.

“Keep it simple” is a basic principle of design. When a hundred pieces are used in an attempt to replicate the form and shape of pieces that already exist in a few-piece solution just to “do something custom”, it’s unnecessarily complex. Not to mention it looks terrible 99% of the time.

My main concern was of getting a design, that when changed into the metru torso and hip pieces in the artwork is impossible to replicate irl. Just about all of the ones I’ve seen are like that but I don’t think they’re going to win anyways. If they beat the odds, oh well

[Winger]

@TheJerminator

To me, that difference is noticeable, and something that I would try to achieve if it were my MOC.

actually, can’t you achieve the same proportionality effect with a metru torso using stopped 4L axles.

[Eljay]

@Dag

Then why were none of the more up to date and relevant images from it used in the episode last night, and rather you went with my Vakama MOC only, that wasn’t even posted here by me?

I didn’t choose the images, Meso did. Not that it matters, none of the photos you posted would have convinced me.

@Dag

With all due respect, can you put your arrogance aside for one moment and actually refute what I said if you don’t find it convincing?

So with zero due respect. Got it.

The point. What is the point? You want to make a custom torso for characters we have confirmed torsos for because… you just want to? Go ahead and make them, to your hearts content, but they’re not canon compliant.

Artistic license is a great way to excuse “We don’t have the molds anymore and this Rahkshi is in the style of the rest of the Stars.” We are not hindered by that limitation and shouldn’t be forced to abide by it because you don’t want to use specific pieces.

Additionally, the Rahkshi can be excused otherwise - they were modified to sport thicker, light-resistant armor.

What I don’t appreciate is this sheer arrogance that you protrude because you believe your creations and arguments are so infallible that there is no way you couldn’t convince others you are right.

You have not given a sound reason as to why, in a contest about factual canon, actual, tangible visual fact, it would be a good idea to disregard mandating the pieces used by our current Hagah.

Nothing I’m saying in this post is binding, we are still fielding feedback. But if you want a direct response moreso than the one you have already gotten, here you go.

[Winger]

@Eljay

@Dag

With all due respect, can you put your arrogance aside for one moment and actually refute what I said if you don’t find it convincing?

So with zero due respect. Got it.

Purely out of curiosity, what about this was disrespectful? Harsh maybe, but not disrespectful.

[Keplers]

@TheJerminator

Being the only available option at the time isn’t really a “staple”.

They weren’t really the only available option, but even if they were my point remains. They are a consistent part of the Metru and Hagah build. The Toa Hagah did not use Vahki/Mata feet, Bohrok feet, or Hordika shins, all of which were available at the time. They did not use Metru forearms; they used Metru shins as their forearms. These are defined parts of what makes a Hagah build vs. a standard Metru.

[Eljay]

@Winger

Purely out of curiosity, what about this was disrespectful? Harsh maybe, but not disrespectful.

It suggests that the only reason we hold our stance is out of arrogance, which isn’t true in the slightest. It assumes motive before any actual dialogue can be had.

On our site. About the contests we’re running. In response us… who he is attempting to convince. It’s massively disrespectful, which is just disappointing.

[Keplers]

Eljay, I don’t believe your stance is held out of arrogance – heck, I hold it too – but the manner in which you’ve attempted to deal with Dag has been less than tactful. Meso’s rebuttal actually addressed Dag’s concerns and explained why in this canon contest they aren’t really a priority.

[Winger]

_{communication, people, communication …}

[Arceane64]

For the record, I would like to make the quick and simple case that while I’m all for creative opportunity in this contest, in terms of limb variety, armor and colors, weapon designs (as long as it’s a polearm/spear), I think the Metru gearbox should or can act as the main constant. It’s like Eljay said last night; nearly everyone has at least one Metru gearbox, meaning that anyone can make a Hagah. If it’s required, then it won’t kill creative opportunity. It’s part of that threshold I mentioned, earlier.

[TheJerminator]

Another image in this thread seems to prove that that is the case.

However, my point wasn’t necessarily that custom torsos are necessary to make that specific connection, but moreso about Meso’s broader statement that such a change is unnoticeable. Dismissing custom torsos because the changes are “unnoticeable” is a highly subjective statement. I could just as easily say that custom torsos should be allowed, because the changes are “unnoticeable”.

There have been many reasonable justifications that I have seen to disallow custom torsos, but “that difference is unnoticeable” isn’t one of them.

@Winger

Purely out of curiosity, what about this was disrespectful?

@Dag

put your arrogance aside for one moment

This part.

[Eljay]

We have different ways of approaching these things, certainly. I do not appreciate the perception Dag is attempting to convey, and will respond to it plainly and honestly. Meso and I are both heavily involved, and neither of us cancel out the other.

This is all, of course, ignoring the fact that we have asked that the Metru torso conversation be put on hold in this topic for a bit. But alas.

[Keplers]

@TheJerminator

However, my point wasn’t necessarily that custom torsos are necessary to make that specific connection, but moreso about Meso’s broader statement that such a change is unnoticeable. Dismissing custom torsos because the changes are “unnoticeable” is a highly subjective statement.

The differences might be noticeable – by your own admission, by some people more than others – but I feel as though aesthetic perfection should come second to canon adherence. Look at, for example, Gresh’s terribly gappy armor. A MOCist could fix that instantly, but that wouldn’t make it canonically-compliant.

@Winger

communication, people, communication …

every soldier regardless of MOS is expected to shoot move and communicate hooah

[TheJerminator]

@Keplers

I feel as though aesthetic perfection should come second to canon adherence

I completely agree with this statement.

@Keplers

Look at, for example, Gresh’s terribly gappy armor. A MOCist could fix that instantly, but that wouldn’t make it canonically-compliant.

Why not? Gresh was never specifically stated to have gaps throughout his body, and everything else about canon would imply that Glatorian don’t just have random holes in them.

Obviously such a MOC wouldn’t suddenly become canon, but it would comply with canon.

[Arceane64]

@Keplers

Look at, for example, Gresh’s terribly gappy armor. A MOCist could fix that instantly, but that wouldn’t make it canonically-compliant.

In my statements about creative liberties, this is mostly what I mean. I want to be able to create a physically solid moc that fills in the gaps with the standard parts. Would that be considered a revamp? Probably, but it adheres to my personal standards as a moccist.

[Mesonak]

At the end of the day, I just want it known that if we were going to strawman, not acknowledge, intentionally misinterpret, or totally devalue contrasting feedback, we wouldn’t have bothered making this topic at all. We could’ve just made the contest. Even if we can’t RELATE to the points people make, we always take them into consideration.

For us, this whole roundabout discussion has basically just been trying to get to a point where we can tell if there exists a worthwhile reason to risk bending things and forgoing a simple, canon-adherent solution for a more complex one that could cause problems, especially when it will all iron out in the artwork portion anyway. Thus far… no real dice.

[Winger]

@Eljay

respond to it plainly and honestly.

Ok, well …

I interpreted Dag’s statement as being “your arrogance is getting in the way of you seeing my side”, not

@Eljay

that the reason we hold our stance is out of arrogance

It’s still harsh as I said, and obviously (as with most arguments on this site) it goes both ways, but couldn’t it also be true that it has a certain level of truth to it?

[Keplers]

@Mesonak

At the end of the day, I just want it known that if we were going to strawman, not acknowledge, intentionally misinterpret, or totally devalue contrasting feedback, we wouldn’t have bothered making this topic at all. We could’ve just made the contest.

I spent a solid thirty seconds drafting a quasi-strawman for this statement before deciding it would be so unconstructive as to actively detract from the conversation. I just felt you should know.

@Winger

@Eljay

that the reason we hold our stance is out of arrogance

It’s still harsh as I said, and obviously (as with most arguments on this site) it goes both ways, but couldn’t it also be true that it has a certain level of truth to it?

Dangerous ground to tread here, but it does deserve consideration.

@TheJerminator

@Keplers

Look at, for example, Gresh’s terribly gappy armor. A MOCist could fix that instantly, but that wouldn’t make it canonically-compliant.

Why not? Gresh was never specifically stated to have gaps throughout his body, and everything else about canon would imply that Glatorian don’t just have random holes in them.

Obviously such a MOC wouldn’t suddenly become canon, but it would comply with canon.

The bolded part is my point in particular.