Okay but a. that doesn’t answer my question of what your argument is and b. I feel your upset considering your picking a fight with Eljay over him not using your images and people not agreeing with you
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we can leave the Hoseryx thing. This is extremely different, because it’s a rule that at the end of the day makes almost no difference to a build - as everyone has already said, or at least how I interpret them when they say “it has no point”.
offering compensation for votes is against the rules.
how exactly would that spite TTV?
That was clearly not true from past contests
Viable, but balanced out by people not voting for it because it’s custom.
That one’s actually a possibility.
What’s the problem with that?
He’s upset because he feels people are misinterpreting his argument purposefully. Don’t try and make him sound less credible by making him sound petty.
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Okay in order:
prizes and rewards are against the rules so long as they are caught if your not then its fine.
voting for a custom torso would stick it to TTV by being like “hahahah you all thought we wouldn’t vote for a custom torso but look at that we voted for it and its in second place”
Name of the builder could happen because they are popular or your friends with them in which case you’ll vote for their moc
custom for custom sake is pretty much the same thing as art winning over mocs because its are
to troll is well duh
and it looking cool is an issue because it could look cool but look nothing like a hagah or be in a grey zone/just barely fitting in
I want to remind y’all of entries that nearly won the Helryx contest:
This last one ultimately placed third behind “Bendy” and the accepted Helryx MOC by Double. If we want the winning, or even leading, Hagah entries to be canon-compliant, we absolutely cannot rely on the good judgement of the voters.
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I’m fine enough with the preliminary ruling on the limb/armor/etc stuff. I think general aesthetic sense will keep most people from using egregious pieces for the most part (although I personally will still moan if the metallic colors don’t have a good balance on the team overall :P).
And the upper and lower Metru torso mandate is the way to go IMO. It’s simpler and will create fewer headaches for you guys in trying to determine whether a certain MOC fits the rules. The stud-based system of measurement seems too liable to grey areas of “Well, the torso is only 5 studs, but the armor bulks it out to 6,” as exemplified in the second picture of the white torso. It’s not impossible to either articulate such limitations in the rules or in judgement calls, but again, why go through that hassle when you can just mandate the upper and lower Metru torso?
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That’s so different. Helryx has no predefined build. The Hagah do, and most people have a relatively common interpretation of it.
I mean no one’s complaining about custom Artakha.
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Well considering how much discourse/drama/arguments there have been over what is a Metru/Hagah build and what is shared between the Hagah
I’d say people in fact don’t have an idea of what the Hagah look like
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I’m a strong proponent of the rules only mandating what we canonically know about these characters, but I understand why many fear inconsistent designs, especially given how the contest is being run with all four at the same time.
How would people feel about a ruleset in which there are required rules and “optional” rules? I’m imagining something like this:
REQUIRED:
- Has a metallic color
- Wields a spear
- (etc)
“OPTIONAL” (You must follow at least x number of these rules)
- Metru feet
- Metru leg forearms
- Black as a secondary color
- (etc)
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First off, apologies if you felt like we strawmanned, disrespected, or misinterpreted your points. Sans outright reading every single post in this topic verbatim, accurately representing every possible POV with pinpoint accuracy would be impossible within our timeframe. I opted instead to highlight not only individual posts, but posts which were the source of discussion on a larger scale. Your Vakama, for instance, like you say, was not directly relevant or created as a response to these Hagah contests, much like WholesomeGadunka’s MoC also was not. However, these MoCs became the source of larger discussions and so they were discussion worthy because it addressed swathes of people in one go.
I happened to really like your suggestion even if I don’t personally relate to the need for it, as I think it’s a fair compromise between the points and I appreciated that you were being constructive in the topic. As such, I don’t really appreciate the vitriol being spewed or talking down to me as if I’m a child who needs to go sit in the corner. Eljay and I both can readily admit that we are not MoCists, so we’re not approaching this from a MoCist perspective.
As such, to US, this seems pointless (important distinction there), because what you can achieve in 60 pieces can generally be achieved in 5 with very minor borderline indiscernible differences. That does not mean, however, that your line of thinking is pointless, because at the end of the day it matters to you and how you build and how you express yourself, and you have just as much of a voice as anybody in these whole proceedings. I think we made that pretty clear, and I still believe that.
To address your post specifically, the images were not specifically used because the discussion was brief and the only thing I personally felt was relevant to the bigger picture at hand was the dimensions. which I was able to satisfactorily explain without posting 6 different images. With respect, if we had discussed this image for instance in depth:
https://i.imgur.com/v2cx3Kg.jpg
You probably wouldn’t have been happy with our tone because we probably would have laughed at it. A lot. Not for the purpose of belittling you, but because from our unique perspective as non MoCists whose primary concern is canon… the difference here is, again, borderline nonexistent. I get what you’re trying to convey, truly, and from a MoCists perspective you’re 100% correct. I think you adequately made your case for why the idea is solid, I presented it as such, and we’re fairly considering it based on all the points you made. But I take heavy issue with the assertion that we somehow “strawmanned” your argumentation, because nothing in your essay makes me, as a non MoCist, understand it any more. It still seems like way more work than it’s worth (both in terms of creation on the part of the builder, enforcement on the part of the moderators, and potential for bending the rules on behalf of the community) for results that are barely different from using a standard Metru torso.
Again, to directly respond to your essay:
virtually no creativity is possible.
Again, I’m sorry if you feel offended. We seriously didn’t mean to, and I appreciate all the work you’ve put into discussing this.
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That’s exactly my point, though. The Hagah do have a very strictly predefined build, and there’s little to say the voters and builders will all acknowledge that. Helryx’s build was at least defined as recognizable to a Toa, and yet the second-place valid entry was commonly compared to a Vortixx or even a video game model.
Being the only available option at the time isn’t really a “staple”.
As you said, to you.
To me, that difference is noticeable, and something that I would try to achieve if it were my MOC.
“Keep it simple” is a basic principle of design. When a hundred pieces are used in an attempt to replicate the form and shape of pieces that already exist in a few-piece solution just to “do something custom”, it’s unnecessarily complex. Not to mention it looks terrible 99% of the time.
My main concern was of getting a design, that when changed into the metru torso and hip pieces in the artwork is impossible to replicate irl. Just about all of the ones I’ve seen are like that but I don’t think they’re going to win anyways. If they beat the odds, oh well 
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actually, can’t you achieve the same proportionality effect with a metru torso using stopped 4L axles.
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I didn’t choose the images, Meso did. Not that it matters, none of the photos you posted would have convinced me.
So with zero due respect. Got it.
The point. What is the point? You want to make a custom torso for characters we have confirmed torsos for because… you just want to? Go ahead and make them, to your hearts content, but they’re not canon compliant.
Artistic license is a great way to excuse “We don’t have the molds anymore and this Rahkshi is in the style of the rest of the Stars.” We are not hindered by that limitation and shouldn’t be forced to abide by it because you don’t want to use specific pieces.
Additionally, the Rahkshi can be excused otherwise - they were modified to sport thicker, light-resistant armor.
What I don’t appreciate is this sheer arrogance that you protrude because you believe your creations and arguments are so infallible that there is no way you couldn’t convince others you are right.
You have not given a sound reason as to why, in a contest about factual canon, actual, tangible visual fact, it would be a good idea to disregard mandating the pieces used by our current Hagah.
Nothing I’m saying in this post is binding, we are still fielding feedback. But if you want a direct response moreso than the one you have already gotten, here you go.
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Purely out of curiosity, what about this was disrespectful? Harsh maybe, but not disrespectful.
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They weren’t really the only available option, but even if they were my point remains. They are a consistent part of the Metru and Hagah build. The Toa Hagah did not use Vahki/Mata feet, Bohrok feet, or Hordika shins, all of which were available at the time. They did not use Metru forearms; they used Metru shins as their forearms. These are defined parts of what makes a Hagah build vs. a standard Metru.
It suggests that the only reason we hold our stance is out of arrogance, which isn’t true in the slightest. It assumes motive before any actual dialogue can be had.
On our site. About the contests we’re running. In response us… who he is attempting to convince. It’s massively disrespectful, which is just disappointing.
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Eljay, I don’t believe your stance is held out of arrogance – heck, I hold it too – but the manner in which you’ve attempted to deal with Dag has been less than tactful. Meso’s rebuttal actually addressed Dag’s concerns and explained why in this canon contest they aren’t really a priority.
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communication, people, communication …
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For the record, I would like to make the quick and simple case that while I’m all for creative opportunity in this contest, in terms of limb variety, armor and colors, weapon designs (as long as it’s a polearm/spear), I think the Metru gearbox should or can act as the main constant. It’s like Eljay said last night; nearly everyone has at least one Metru gearbox, meaning that anyone can make a Hagah. If it’s required, then it won’t kill creative opportunity. It’s part of that threshold I mentioned, earlier.
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