Another image in this thread seems to prove that that is the case.
However, my point wasn’t necessarily that custom torsos are necessary to make that specific connection, but moreso about Meso’s broader statement that such a change is unnoticeable. Dismissing custom torsos because the changes are “unnoticeable” is a highly subjective statement. I could just as easily say that custom torsos should be allowed, because the changes are “unnoticeable”.
There have been many reasonable justifications that I have seen to disallow custom torsos, but “that difference is unnoticeable” isn’t one of them.
We have different ways of approaching these things, certainly. I do not appreciate the perception Dag is attempting to convey, and will respond to it plainly and honestly. Meso and I are both heavily involved, and neither of us cancel out the other.
This is all, of course, ignoring the fact that we have asked that the Metru torso conversation be put on hold in this topic for a bit. But alas.
The differences might be noticeable – by your own admission, by some people more than others – but I feel as though aesthetic perfection should come second to canon adherence. Look at, for example, Gresh’s terribly gappy armor. A MOCist could fix that instantly, but that wouldn’t make it canonically-compliant.
every soldier regardless of MOS is expected to shoot move and communicate hooah
Why not? Gresh was never specifically stated to have gaps throughout his body, and everything else about canon would imply that Glatorian don’t just have random holes in them.
Obviously such a MOC wouldn’t suddenly become canon, but it would comply with canon.
In my statements about creative liberties, this is mostly what I mean. I want to be able to create a physically solid moc that fills in the gaps with the standard parts. Would that be considered a revamp? Probably, but it adheres to my personal standards as a moccist.
At the end of the day, I just want it known that if we were going to strawman, not acknowledge, intentionally misinterpret, or totally devalue contrasting feedback, we wouldn’t have bothered making this topic at all. We could’ve just made the contest. Even if we can’t RELATE to the points people make, we always take them into consideration.
For us, this whole roundabout discussion has basically just been trying to get to a point where we can tell if there exists a worthwhile reason to risk bending things and forgoing a simple, canon-adherent solution for a more complex one that could cause problems, especially when it will all iron out in the artwork portion anyway. Thus far… no real dice.
I interpreted Dag’s statement as being “your arrogance is getting in the way of you seeing my side”, not
It’s still harsh as I said, and obviously (as with most arguments on this site) it goes both ways, but couldn’t it also be true that it has a certain level of truth to it?
I spent a solid thirty seconds drafting a quasi-strawman for this statement before deciding it would be so unconstructive as to actively detract from the conversation. I just felt you should know.
Dangerous ground to tread here, but it does deserve consideration.
If you think I’m correct from a moccing perspective, and it turns out that there will be an actual moc portion to the contest, do you not see how it would be hypocritical to still disallow custom builds?
That Lhikan has systems pieces where the Hagah do not.
That Kualus(?) has lower leg armor where the Hagah do not.
That purple Toa has a Pohatu style body, where the Hagah do not.
The rest are only different in what chest piece they have, different by literally just a single piece, which only bolsters my point. I wasn’t saying creativity wasn’t possible with the Metru Torso at all (Nenon proves that completely wrong), but depending on how much you decide to regulate entries, the only creative freedom will be changing 4-5 pieces.
It does matter, because you and Meso could’ve presented them and shown on the episode why its not convincing. Instead, it was left out altogether, giving the impression that it was either missed, or intentionally ignored, even if that wasn’t your intention.
An excellent point that I was not aware of, thank you. However, it doesn’t refute my overall point about artistic difference. There are several other examples that have no lore significance.
Dialogue was had. This post has been dialogue for the past few days. The Nak & Jay episode last night was dialogue. And still, the details of my post were largely ignored.
And I wouldn’t have said anything if my essay and images provided would’ve been discussed thoroughly in the episode instead of just one outdated MOC. But alas.
I read his essay and have been keeping up with the arguments being made in this topic. We’re here to have a constant dialogue with as many members of the community who choose to be here and discuss the merits of these arguments. I am not ignoring him, the points he is making, or the grounds he is making them on. I’m asking him questions. I’m asking for clarification. I am not ever opting to shut him down or shut him out of a dialogue with us or with others, provided our rules are adhered to.
There is a huge difference between refusing to see the point and not agreeing with it. He has not properly convinced us whatsoever, but we’re still trying to discuss the argument he’s making.
Going back to the “Metru build vs Hagah build” topic from yesterday, something I meant to say was, I think Nenon is a Metru build by community standards, but it isn’t a canon-compliant Metru build.
My suggestion for the people running these is to just make a poll for Metru builds to cut down on all this fighting. This topic honestly hasn’t accomplished a whole lot besides give suggestions that are mostly pretty easily come to anyways.
Not to the degree you’re insinuating, no. To prioritize custom builds over canon is to put MoCing first and foremost, to cater our ruleset around that community at the expense of the primary goal (or, at the very least, potentially at the expense depending on how much variation ends up existing). This is a canon contest that includes a MoCing component, and the primary argument thus far for allowing custom builds is that to forbid them would be to abandon all hope for creativity, which I simply don’t believe and have seen ample evidence to the contrary. As such, limiting the torso design strikes me more as a theming challenge for how to build creatively in spite of that than an outright restriction that is inherently a bad thing.
None of which will be regulated based on our rules. As I mentioned in my earlier post, we don’t plan to restrict anything aside from torso-usage, as the only canon stipulation placed upon the Hagah by Greg is “Metru-styled builds.” Although Norik and Iruini do share the things you mention, using other Toa teams as an example (such as the Mata), there exists enough precedent for variance to where system pieces, lower leg armor, flipped torsos, etc. could be totally fair game, as well as ample amounts of torso armor designs, limb armor designs (that could potentially be custom and multi-piece), etc.
Please remember that the Hagah are not illusory figures in the lore who were kept mysterious for the sake of their mystique (Tren Krom, Anonna, etc.). They’re not Titans like Artakha, these larger than life figures. They’re Toa. If the winds had blown differently or if LEGO had more of a budget, we could’ve gotten them as sets. LEGO could just as easily have made Bomonga or Pouks instead of Norik and Iruini. As such, from a purist perspective, keeping them “set accurate” (within reason and acceptable deviations) is certainly on the minds of many in terms of this contest. That is, in essence, the primary goal; creative MoCs and cool amazingly drawn artwork is a secondary goal.
And if that doesn’t jive with the MoCing community at large, there will be many other contests besides this one.
How would you feel about a rule where all of the armour and limb pieces could be changed, but we could only use same-function pieces officially released by Lego?
Basically, no custom limbs, but you could use the Inika thigh armour, for example.
By restricting it to the exact same pieces that Lego would have been willing to use, you ensure that the Hagah match with Norik and Iruini, while still leaving plenty of room for personal choices.
I wouldn’t really call it a Metru build. It just uses one at its core, but there are so many parts hiding it. I mean it may be, I’m no authority.
But to me, its as much as a Metru build as Gadunka is an Inika build
