Toa Hagah Canon Contest Ruleset Feedback

It seems far more appropriate to keep the masks from the first round, given that custom masks are not necessary for a canon-compliant design. Otherwise, why couldn’t there also be placeholder colours, or placeholder armour?

There’s also the option to implement a rule for the creator to say whether or not they’d be okay with the mask being changed, but that’s kind of a slippery slope; what’s stopping the creator from saying they’re okay with the colour being changed, or the overall proportions?

(The reason this hasn’t been a slippery slope for the last two contests is because the masks had to be custom to be canon-compliant, while nothing else did. That’s not the case for these contests.)

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I’d actually be pretty disappointed if a cool art piece didn’t get through just because Norik and Iruini weren’t in it. These are Canon Contests, and therefore, it shouldn’t be important to depict things that are already canon. At least in my opinion.

(Doesn’t mean it hurts to have them there, though. :stuck_out_tongue:)

Ok, so like, this doesn’t bother me either way, but I would prefer the FFA to be the canon mask. I think the only think that could potentially warrant a mask change i if two are the same, but in the spirit of the FFA itself being “MoCs and Art can compete because the contest is about the canon character being depicted,” I think that it’s weird to add on "Oh, butnotthemask. That’s not canon until later. :stuck_out_tongue:

Also kind of glad about the delay, gives me more time to prepare. :stuck_out_tongue:

This phrasing assumes “MoC”. I’ve been talking about it from an art context. I assume the same rules apply?

Ah, well. Guess the pose I had in mind might work with it on his back, instead.

Awesome! Wasn’t actually expecting that, but it’s a pleasant surprise.

Ack, that could be visually rough. I’d better commence my bracing now and hope for the best. :stuck_out_tongue:

Seconding this. :wink:

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Would it be recognized as the Vision Mask, or would it officially be an unknown design that happens to look like a non-canon video game asset?

I do hope you’re not trying to get him to retcon established canon… That would be disingenuous to both the community and to Greg.

I’m torn.
In the past, I was a big proponent of allowing the metallic armour to be recoloured, and the masks the same. However, it has occurred to me that it is very likely that we’ll see a bunch of entries with a select few masks – lhikan’s Hau, and the rode come to mind – and it would be more irritating to be stuck with two Hagah wearing the same Mask than it would be to have mettalic armour imbalance.

So yes, I think that the masks should be allowed to change.

@TheJerminator well, there is no vision mask in canon and VNOG is non-canon, so it should be an unknown power.

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We’re not trying to do anything. Were it up to us, we’d leave it alone and accept the quote at face value, instead of trying to find 751 different ways to retcon a preexisting answer. The reason we’re reaching out is to not do a disservice to community members perspectives and opinions. This way, no stone is left unturned, and decisions moving forward are properly informed and there is no doubt about the path forward.

Whenever we ask Greg clarifying questions, they are asked from an unbiased and unopinionated lens. Our goal is clarity, even if it comes at the cost of our preference.

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You’re reading our minds. Just an idea, at this stage, but yeah; we’re going to be making a new topic pitching a few different solutions. In the event that happened, it would be solely the mask, rather than any other parameters, that would be able to be mandated by the creator.

To devil’s advocate for a second, what’s to stop us from simply extending the entry period to allow enough time for all characters?

Correct-o!

The latter.

Trust me… TRUST ME… we’re not. We have… very, very strong opinions on this, and will likely dedicate a whole Nak&Jay on this topic very soon (in the next week, most likely). I think that going down a selective retcon rabbit hole would be destructive for everybody involved. That being said, yeah, like Eljay said, we’re just trying to be fair. We were asked to relay a message, and we’ve done so, from a completely objective standpoint. There’s enough grey in this situation to spark all this debate, so I don’t think asking Greg hurts anything.

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I suppose I should clarify what I mean. I’ve no issue with asking for clarification. ; my worry is that you’d just get him to go back on things.

It’s the difference between “hey, when you said X, did you also mean Y”, vs. “hey, I know you said X but could you change your mind and say Y.”

But if you’ve given all relevant past answers and are just asking to make sure there’s no misunderstanding, there shouldn’t be an issue, I hope.

Sorry if I seemed a little harsh in my reply earlier.

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I think it’d be fine, seeing as how it’s supposed to be the group shot that goes up on the Hagah’s BS01 page. Obviously then the entry period should be elongated, but that basically goes without saying. But while that’s my preferred option, I’m also still fine with keeping it how it is, with the 4 being mandated, and Norik and Iruini being highly encouraged.

Yeesh, every time I try to think of a response to this, by the time I finish I’ve completely changed my viewpoint on it. Definitely something I’ll have to sleep on. All I can say is… yeah, that is very, definitely a good point :woman_shrugging:

Hype for Thunderdome Round 3 is real. “A dozen commenters enter, 2 hosts and a handful of mods leave crying! Buy your tickets today!”

Aye. Better to have 429 comments of arguments than 0 comments at all.

In all honesty, in a certain regard, these contests couldn’t be happening at a better time, all things considered. With the Panny-D going on for the foreseeable future, the contests are a great way for people to get their mind away from that heartache and stress, and focus on something productive (and stressful in a different way :stuck_out_tongue:). And as you and Eljay have made clear time and again, these contests haven’t exactly been easy on you guys either, and I appreciate you two, Kini, Infrared, Invi, and all the others putting in the time and effort to make sure they go as well as possible. 10 years from G1’s cancellation, and the theme is still going strong, thanks in no small part to you guys and the boards. Stay strong :muscle: :blue_heart:

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I’d say for group art, eh adding Iruini and Norik maybe not be a requirement, but I’d be likely to vote for a depiction that includes em.
I wouldnt mandate it, but just stating that for the artists to keep in mind.

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So my current concerns are:

  • When it is said that only one metallic color is allowed, is that meant as general color (i.e. Silver/Gold/Copper/Gunmetal) or ultra-specific Lego color? Since the latter gets murky. Don’t want to see someone get disqualified because one silver piece is ever so slightly darker or lighter.
  • When it comes to height, does that include the mask? Because an Iruini-build with a Rode would be taller…

Would like to know how strict/loose these rules are.

I don’t think Norik/Iruini should be mandated, no.

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Then consider that worry no longer. We’re not doing that. Others in this community have tried and are trying. We. Are. Not.

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100% yes. Again, the point is to have coherent unified look between all six Toa because they are a team. And I value this more than anything in regards to this canon contest.

Isn’t the rule that the earliest answer counts?

But Toa Hagah are a team. If the final task was to draw four characters in the style of 2005 comics, it wouldn’t be necessary.

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Not necessairily, Greg has stated he reserves the right to change his mind on things. Like I said prior, I think the only proper resolution would be to have Greg re-adress it. I think it mainly applies to the LMB-onwards era.

Hot take: Norik should be mandated but not Iruini. After all, Iruini wasn’t always part of the team.

Serious answer: I feel Norik and Iruini should be encouraged but not required, but it could go either way with little impact. I imagine that even if they aren’t required… 90% of entries will draw them, and people will be much more inclined to vote for entries that include them. So in the end, it will almost certainly make little difference (I’ll be surprised if any entry in the top six doesn’t include them)

Plus, I really want to see if someone draws Norik and not Iruini. :stuck_out_tongue:

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There is a difference between “I don’t remember answering this question” and “I changed my mind”.

Finally sat down and read this, and it seems to me like a very reasonable set of rules. Well done! I think running free-for-all MOC/art contests plus a final art contest is a good compromise between making the contest accessible to people and ensuring consistency of the final product.

There’s only one big question I have after reading the rules – if custom mask designs win, are we going to assign powers to those mask shapes? Although it’s technically outside the scope of defining the look of the Toa Hagah, introducing a new mask shape into canon is a big deal in any event. I imagine people (including me) will be curious what powers those mask shapes are supposed to represent normally, and I think it makes sense to make that decision part of this contest while it’s still fresh on all of our minds and Greg is willing to canonize it.

No, they absolutely do not. In fact, they completely undermine the mandate. Yes, they are phenomenal MOCs, but with the amount of detail/greebling (not just on the torso, but overall), it again begs the question, what is a Metru build in the context of the Hagah (which is a horse beyond beaten dead, and yet here we are). Entries like this are exactly why @Kini_Hawkeye and I brought up WholesomeGadunka’s Nenon in the first topic. When it was discussed on the Nak & Jay episode, it was pointed out that Nenon doesn’t use the same limb construction or the Metru hip piece, and so would be disqualified for that at least under the current ruleset. But Arceane’s MOCs are a good representation of the same point under the context of the Hagah. I’m not at all suggesting they should be banned. I’m saying that there’s practically no difference between a build like those and an actual custom build like mine, just that they’re varying degrees of the same thing and should both be considered a “Metru build”. I would even say my Kualus offers more cohesion with Norik and Iruini over Arceane’s MOCs in certain areas, namely the actual heart lights, fingers, lower leg armor (though not metallic), or multi-piece spears, while my build’s torso is entirely custom. All I want is consistency, and allowing this while banning my custom build is anything but. I understand that such details are difficult to regulate with a ruleset, so the line as to be drawn somewhere, but I don’t see why it has to be drawn where it currently is, and I’ve already offered the adequate idea of mandating torso dimensions as to account for completely egregious custom builds (i.e. something more like an Inika build for example).

And before anyone makes this point, no, it is not inconsistent or hypocritical of me to want consistency from TTV, while also arguing for custom builds which aren’t strictly consistent with Norik and Iruini’s use of the actual torso pieces. As I pointed out already (which seems to have gone largely unnoticed), inconsistencies already exist in canon designs that I have no control over. Unfortunate, yes, but its existence opens the possibility of builds that are not the Metru construction to be under the umbrella of “Metru build”. So even then, I want consistency in those inconsistencies.

One of the points you made against me in the first topic was showing several examples of creative MOCs using the Metru build. I then pointed out that they have major differences that would conflict with Norik and Iruini’s aesthetic, one of which was metallic armor on the lower legs. You replied that that wouldn’t be regulated in the rules. Well, now that the rules have been posted:

All I want is three things: consistency, consistency, consistency.

Did I mention consistency yet?

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Really glad to hear that you guys reached out to Greg to clarify what he meant. Definitely the best way to settle this debate; interested to hear what he has to say on the matter.

By the way, @Mesonak, did you adress the idea to prohibit using gold armour in Gaaki and Kualus to avoid confusion with Psionics and Light? As this is a community contest we have the ability to maintain consistency that set designers didn’t necessarily care about.

We have the ability to do so, but not a canon reason.

This is a very good point. The rules go so far as to match the exact posing and weapon position of the entry photo, yet also allow vastly different levels of detail.

I can understand the use of slightly more complex armour techniques (as long as the colour blocking remains the same), but the MOCs in question add additional armour where the original Hagah had none, and in Gaaki’s case, the additional armour doesn’t even match the base colour.

And that’s not even touching the hands.

Personally, I think that the Hagah in question actually should be allowed, but that doesn’t exactly jibe with the extreme level of control that the rules are laying down elsewhere.

(At the end of the day, I’m also fine with the more restrictive rules, but they have to be consistent.)

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