Toa Hagah Canon Contest Survey and Final Q&A

[SirKeksalot]

That’s not an intrinsically bad thing.

[Winger]

@SirKeksalot

intrinsically

you can’t be dropping these big words on us lowlifes.

geez, who do you think we are, normal people with lives or something?

[Ghid]

Well, looks like Hazash has responded to my small wall of text with a massive wall of text.

Go big or go home, I guess.

@Hazash

You’re confusing consistency with monotony.

I’ll bite. What is so non-monotonous about the entries thus far?

Same torso, same upper limbs, almost all same shoulder armour, same armor placement, same posture, same weaponry, same foot piece, same silhouette, same flavour, same concept, identical to the two existing sets and completely unoriginal in execution. You have the stock format and it is followed to a T; nothing new or really even creative is being offered. Instead of looking like a team they’re looking like clone troopers with the only differentiating marks being color.

This is readily appearing to be a Metru build contest rather than a Hagah one because nobody is remotely willing to work outside the box or push the limitations present to their utmost limit. The sarcastic calls for the contest to be completely eliminated in favor of only an art contest due to how same-y the entries were becoming quickly turned into unironic support of the due to how logical that course was becoming.

Give me life in these mocs; this is no place for the dead.

@Hazash

They have the same colour placement, but have different metallic colours. They have different masks and spear heads, but they both have spears and shields. One has short legs, one has long. They strike a careful balance between consistency and individuality, and there are mathematically enough points of variability (mask, colour, armour, spear head, etc.) to preserve this balance of uniformity and creativity with the other Hagah without ending up with ‘boring clone sets’.

And you know what?

@Racie02

Five of them have silver and one has gold.
Five of them have bohrok shield chest plates, and Norik has two torsos.
Five of the have vahki shins, and iruini doesn’t.
Five of them have Metru feet and thighs, and pouks has Inika legs, or thunder thighs, or even CCBS legs.
Five of them have simple, one piece shoulder armour, and one has big buff sanok shoulders.

Those are not only the Only variables listed by Racie, the extent to which Norik and Iruini take them are the Furthest possible option on this list. At that point you are literally talking about clones and scrambling to find at what points they differ so you can tell them apart.

@Hazash

To me, the Hagah are striking, but they don’t scream in your face with “Look at me, I am EPIC”.

That’s kind of unfortunate, because that’s entirely the point.

This ain’t your Tahu or your Vakama; this here is elite Toa Norik; he’s got a special shield, silver armour and mask, and that one spear thing from Gali Nuva, and look - he’s literally engulfed in flame! You try to tell me Norik isn’t saying “Look at me, I am EPIC” and I will laugh at you because he most definitely is.

Now I don’t want some more Noriks but blue, white, black, and brown. I’d like some Noriks with wild diversity. Bomonga with a massive build! Pouks with thunderous thighs! Kualus with an insanely thin stature! Gaaki with a stealth-based appearance! And yet all of them wearing armour, shields, and spears, so they fit within team cohesion.

@Hazash

Many people will be voting on the basis of maintaining that delicate balance between consistency and creativity, and we cannot cater to those people if we run simultaneous voting.

Then don’t cater to them at all.

Many people will also be voting with the sole intent to choose entries that look good, not ones that happen to avoid using the shin pieces of the last entry they choose. Let’s try catering to those people; to the ones who want a good end result for the contest, and not the people who will be upset no matter what wins.

@Hazash

And don’t forget: if you want less consistent designs, there’s still a chance that two Hagah using the same really cool and unique aspect both win.

Oh gee, a chance! I’m so glad I stomped on the fingers of the dutiful clone army to bring about the slightest flavour of uniqueness in my homemade Toa Hagah contest! Too bad that precious team consistency that demands they all have only one thing unique about them got trampled in the mad rush for something actually decent-looking.

Dude, I am becoming less and less in favour of the concept of staggered voting the more I read your text monument. You’re readily convincing me of my own side.

@Hazash

If the most consistent designs keep winning, then that’s evidence that a huge group of people want consistency . But conversely, if the least consistent designs keep winning, that’s evidence that most people would rather sacrifice the unrealistic meta of everything being a carbon copy of each other in favor of models which add something rather than sacrifice their soul for the team.

Fixed it for you.

@Hazash

If you run the votes simultaneously, you’re guaranteeing that more people in the pro-consistency group will be disappointed with the winning designs.

And that more people in the pro-good design group would be happy. “See the plight my side is in” is not a compelling reason to abandon my side to their plight.

@Hazash

The issue of fairness when it comes to which Toa gets voted on first and last is a valid concern, but again, I think it’s a necessary sacrifice to accommodate for the fact that this is a team contest as much as four individual contests.

Mandating the entry of all four raises as much issues as staggering the votes does, and would you look at that, it eliminates the whole pesky consistency issue.

Granted, I’m not a fan of mandating all four, as it will basically force two people to win and the rest to lose. Hardly fair. But I’d take it over your option.

@Hazash

• We let people vote on which Hagah goes first, second, etc.
• Voting is ordered based on how many people entered that Toa. If Gaaki has the most entries, she goes first. If Bomonga has the least, he goes last. If there’s much more of one Toa than the others, this will minimise the dissatisfaction of entrants.
• The order is randomised.
• The order is something intuitive and unbiased, like alphabetical order.
• We allow a bit of time between voting periods for people to modify their designs and resubmit (and / or to keep the entry periods open while other contests are running). We’d need to make it clear to people when the entry periods open that they need to be prepared to modify their designs promptly if they’re worried about consistency. Otherwise, we’ll have to wait at least a week for people who want to order in a new paint or new parts. That said, I personally don’t mind these contests taking longer.

1. We let people decide which of the preexisting MOCs should win the first contest.
2. Voting is based on how many people entered that Toa to make the first round the most egregious.
3. Literally no difference considering there’s only four possible options for first and it would likely end up the same as one of these outcomes.
4. We let people decide which of the preexisting MOCs should win the first contest.
5. We allow people to alter their designs to fit the rules we didn’t write so they can hope to be good enough to match the winner of the first.

Or, we run them simultaneously and hold a group art contest afterwards and everyone can go home having earned something rather than forcing one side to earn nothing at all.

@Hazash

Well, this begins to prove my theory that the people who chose simultaneous voting have little to lose by converting to our side.

And you’ve proved I’ve got a lot to lose by conforming. Thank you for reminding me of the stakes; I’ll promise not to forget them again.

@SirKeksalot

That’s not an intrinsically bad thing.

Maybe not. But in a contest where people have been clawing each other to ribbons to determine what is and isn’t ‘the look of the Toa Hagah’, I think it’s ironic that so many people are now willing to let the look of the Hagah be randomly decided by the first contest winner and then have to figure out what the look of the Toa Hagah has become due to that.

[SirKeksalot]

@Ghid

Maybe not. But in a contest where people have been clawing each other to ribbons to determine what is and isn’t ‘the look of the Toa Hagah’, I think it’s ironic that so many people are now willing to let the look of the Hagah be randomly decided by the first contest winner and then have to figure out what the look of the Toa Hagah has become due to that.

But it won’t be. It’s been decided by Norik and Iruini. We already have a standard. Knowing how each individual Hagah in the lineup fits into that standard helps us to keep a uniform appearance going forward.

[Willess12]

Amazing. Every word you just said was wrong.

@ToaKebaka

Options 2 and 3 DO NOT actually improve any consistency.

Wrong.

Option one gives no chance to vote for consistency/balance. Options 2 and 3 give at least a chance

@ToaKebaka

The extent of consistency that is present in the existing Hagah is as follows: Metru torso, spear and rhotuka shield, metallic colors reserve for specific body parts, similar height. That’s it.

Wrong.
They also have the same thigh length, thigh armor, feet, shoulder attachment, lower arms, hands. I’m not saying those things should be kept the same, i’m saying it’s going to look wierd if one of them is different and the rest aren’t.

@ToaKebaka

Any sort of consistency that Options 2 and 3 would produce would be 100% redundant

Wrong.

Right now, the differences in the Hagah are fine because we only have two of them. If Norik is the only one to have silver armor, that’s fine because there’s only one other Toa who doesn’t. If there’s FIVE other Toa who have gold, that’s a problem.

@ToaKebaka

exclude significant fractions of potential entrants

Wrong… probably.

Okay, so I don’t actually have reliable data on this, but I would guess that there’s a very small percentage of people who: 1) can’t do art, 2) don’t have enough Mettur Torsos in the right colour, 3) don’t have money to buy one from bricklink, and d) can’t use Studio.

Again, I COULD BE WRONG on this, that’s just what I’ve been thinking.

@ToaKebaka

All of these problems are unbeffiting of the free-for-all format, which aims and claims to give everybody equal chances regardles of the medium through which they choose to depict their Hagah.

And…?
It’s not as if staggered benefits artists or moccists in any way (unless there’s a revision period, as art might be harder to modify). Group entry does make it easier to enter art, but… well, that’s always going to be the case for people who can draw, and doesn’t give art a better chance of winning

@ToaKebaka

arbitrarily create unfair bias.

There is already bias for these Toa, it comes from Norik and Iruini. They’re the reason we know they all have the same shield and how it’s supposed to look, they’re the reason we know how they’re metallic armor is placed, they’re the reason we know the extent of variation for a Mettur build.
We’re making a team, not four random Toa thrown together for a mission or two. They should look like they belong together, and we can’t do that with simultaneous voting.

Which is why there 100% needs to be an entry revision period if staggered voting is chosen. THAT is a hill I will die on.

[Ghid]

@SirKeksalot

But it won’t be. It’s been decided by Norik and Iruini. We already have a standard.

I’ll list the standard for you right now:

Armour, shield, spear, metru torso/hips.

And yet, even though this is clearly written down and defined, this list can exist without a second thought:

@Racie02

Five of them have silver and one has gold.
Five of them have bohrok shield chest plates, and Norik has two torsos.
Five of the have vahki shins, and iruini doesn’t.
Five of them have Metru feet and thighs, and pouks has Inika legs, or thunder thighs, or even CCBS legs.
Five of them have simple, one piece shoulder armour, and one has big buff sanok shoulders.

As an example of how unique they can be, when in reality it’s a list of how alike they can get.

We may have a written definition of what is and isn’t a Toa Hagah but that clearly hasn’t stopped people from determining what pieces can and can’t be used for team consistency. This is why I’m not too concerned about ‘throwing them under the bus’ with the vote or ‘being unfair’ to them when the community rules to abide by get more and more ridiculous as time goes on.

To reiterate, vote staggering is a bad idea in my book.

@Willess12

They also have the same thigh length, thigh armor, feet, shoulder attachment, lower arms, hands. I’m not saying those things should be kept the same, i’m saying it’s going to look wierd if one of them is different and the rest aren’t.

And would you speak of the devil, here’s the argument literally being made.

ToaKebaka’s technically right here; those are all the rules we need to adhere to. We don’t need to apply any more part replication outside of shield and torso, and I intend to vote for entries that deliberately don’t follow the leader.

[Willess12]

@Ghid

And that more people in the pro-good design group would be happy.

That would be a good point if it were true.

Good designs and color/armor balance are not mutually exclusive things. Simultaneous voting guarantees that those who want balance will be dissapointed. Staggered does not in any way mean that those who like “good designs” are going to be dissapointed.

I’m sure you’re saying “well, what if a well-designed Pouks loses due to bias?” To which I say:

1: that would be the voter’s choice, not stupid random chance.
2: people would know going into it that pouks is last (assuming he is last) and would know that’s the risk they’re taking or they could modify their entry if there’s a modification period which there absolutely needs to be for this Meso
3: We aren’t talking about designs when we speak of balance. if there’s a silver Pouks and a gold Pouks, which one’s better designed? Is one better designed? Could one be better designed? There is no guarantee.

@Ghid

I intend to vote for entries that deliberately don’t follow the leader.

You can’t.
TTV has just decided that all voters will be required to take a mind eraser test so that they don’t know what Norik and Iruini looked like. That way, they aren’t biased by what fits in with those two.
Makes things more fair, right? After all, no bias is better, right?

[SirKeksalot]

What exactly is your point? That we have rules, so we don’t need to abide by any more? That consistency doesn’t matter? That we don’t need to worry about team cohesion regarding armor colors? Because the only actual argument I can parse out from what you’ve posted thus far is that you don’t want entrants to be dictated by the previous Hagah contests, which is exactly the reason why we should stagger the vote. You’re worried about limiting the entrants, but that’s just “muh creativity” in another form. Where this contest is concerned, there are more important things. (EDIT: To be clear, I’m not being a smart-alek, I’m genuinely asking what you’re getting at.)

The entire point of staggering the vote is to prevent the Hagah from having weird outliers. They were given uniforms, and should look the part. If 2 are silver, 3 are gold, and 1 is copper, that cuts into the uniformity. This is quickly turning into yet another roundabout of pointless bickering that will accomplish absolutely nothing in the end. To paraphrase someone else: how many of these arguments have we had to determine that variants of the Metru build will be variants of the Metru build?

[Pylonmadness]

Yes, because these hagah Mocs will have such diverse designs that there will be such a thing as an outlier…

These restrictions and rules on the hagah contest are already overbearing enough. The only thing that’ll be different is armor placement and piece you want, which even then, doesn’t have much creative space. I seriously doubt there’s any chance you’ll see an “outlier”

[Willess12]

@SirKeksalot

how many of these arguments have we had to determine that variants of the Metru build will be variants of the Metru build?

Speaking of which, I find it funny that in the Mettur torso debate, I agreed with Ghid against SirKeksalot, and now I find it the other way around, agreeing with Keks against Ghid.

(to be clear, no matter who I agree/disagree with, I still respect both of you)

Let’s list the drawbacks of each method:

Simultaneous: no chance for consistency or balance
Mandate all four: people have to build more, and people have to vote for “I like this Gaaki but not that pouks”
Staggered: it creates bias for the later Toa

Of these, only one problem already exists: we already have bias because Norik and Iruini exist. And it’s the only problem we can just fix – give an entry revision period.

Staggered voting with an entry revision period would have no drawbacks.
Staggered voting without an entry revision period has only trivial drawbacks.

[SirKeksalot]

@Pylonmadness

Yes, because these hagah Mocs will have such diverse designs that there will be such a thing as an outlier…

Gee, it’s too bad none of us have given an example of how that’d happen. Oh wait…

@SirKeksalot

If 2 are silver, 3 are gold, and 1 is copper, that cuts into the uniformity.

[Pylonmadness]

they’re all wearing some type of metal armor. Sounds pretty uniform to me

[Willess12]

@Pylonmadness

they’re all wearing some type of metal armor

actually, it’s all plastic armor. unless someone builds their legos out of metal
_{this is a joke, not an actual point}

@Pylonmadness

Sounds pretty uniform to me

Okay.
But that is just your opinion.
In my opinion, it would look bad.

This is a common argument I see. “X thing isn’t a problem, because I don’t think it’s a problem.”

[Pylonmadness]

The toa inika had different armor colors, the mahri didn’t look anything like each other, and the 2008 toa was all over the place. You don’t complain about them being a team just cuz their colors aren’t uniform

[SirKeksalot]

Just because the Inika weren’t consistent doesn’t mean other teams should be, nor that it was good that the Inika looked as they did. Hell, some just had a giant metallic torso that clashed with the rest of them. The Inika are bad in general, there’s no reason the Hagah should strive to be like them.

The Inika also weren’t deliberately given uniforms, so there’s also that.

[Pylonmadness]

@SirKeksalot

That’s not how colors work, but alright, you have a right to completely ignore any counterpoints that come your way.

Hmm

Can someone say hypocrite?

[Ghid]

@Willess12

Staggered does not in any way mean that those who like “good designs” are going to be disappointed.

Oh?

Bomonga comes first. Let’s say he uses the Vahki shin. That means:

• All of them have the Vahki shin and Iruini is the odd one out
• Three of them have the Vahki shin and three of them have the Rahkshi shin
• Two of them have the Vahki shin, two have the Rahkshi shin, and two have another type of shin

This isn’t consistency, this is cloning. This is stupid and this is what I’m objecting to. And if staggering is allowed, this will happen. People will then only vote based on what they think uniformity is or how they argue it to be instead of being content with the rules for consistency already written out.

If you think I’m wrong, please read this topic.

@SirKeksalot

To paraphrase someone else: how many of these arguments have we had to determine that variants of the Metru build will be variants of the Metru build?

Specifically, read this man’s post where he implies that mandating limb design is part of the Metru build, an argument so fraught with difficulty that discussing it has been outright banned by TTV. That argument has gotten absolutely nowhere and lead to TTV determining a Metru build is the torso and hips and nothing more for the sake of the contest and the continued sanity of everyone involved.

@Willess12

We aren’t talking about designs when we speak of balance. if there’s a silver Pouks and a gold Pouks, which one’s better designed? Is one better designed? Could one be better designed? There is no guarantee.

Which one is brown or metru brown? does one armour bulk up or slim out the design based on the pieces used? Does he have a neck hunch? All these factors determine whether or not the silver vs gold looks better on the model and makes for a better design.

Now since we’re using strawman arguments, here’s one for you: Two identical Pouks exist. One has Rahkshi shins and the other has Piraka shins. Which is more canon?

@Willess12

You can’t.
TTV has just decided that all voters will be required to take a mind eraser test so that they don’t know what Norik and Iruini looked like.

That’s a bummer, since knowing what Norik and Iruini look like is part of the rules. However, memorizing and abiding by every piece in their construction is not, and neither is ensuring everyone else uses only the pieces seen there.

@SirKeksalot

Because the only actual argument I can parse out from what you’ve posted thus far is that you don’t want entrants to be dictated by the previous Hagah contests, which is exactly the reason why we should stagger the vote.

I… What?

You want to not allow influence from the prior contests by allowing the prior contests to have influence. With simultaneous voting, there is no prior contest, so there is no influence.

@SirKeksalot

To be clear, I’m not being a smart-alek, I’m genuinely asking what you’re getting at.

Could’ve fooled me.

I’m saying the rules we have are acceptable to determining what a Hagah looks like, and bickering over who can and can’t have a particular piece for the leg is utterly stupid, possibly moreso than arguing over the definition of a Metru build. Vote for the team uniformity you want instead of mandating everyone follow that with rules that won’t exist until the first staggered vote is over with.

@SirKeksalot

They were given uniforms, and should look the part.

Those uniforms are called armour, mask, weaponry, and boots, not anatomy. If one of them has pink armour, vote him off.

[SirKeksalot]

Point to where I ignored what you said. You made a point, I addressed it rather than dismissing it outright.

@Ghid

Specifically, read this man’s post where he implies that mandating limb design is part of the Metru build, an argument so fraught with difficulty that discussing it has been outright banned by TTV.

I never said that. Unless you’re talking about someone else, and you’re quoting me by mistake?

@Ghid

You want to not allow influence from the prior contests by allowing the prior contests to have influence. With simultaneous voting, there is no prior contest, so there is no influence.

I worded that poorly. I’m saying that having each contest in succession is the reason to stagger the vote because that informs both the votes and entries goin forward, as I explained before.

@Ghid

I’m saying the rules we have are acceptable to determining what a Hagah looks like, and bickering over who can and can’t have a particular piece for the leg is utterly stupid, possibly moreso than arguing over the definition of a Metru build. Vote for the team uniformity you want instead of mandating everyone follow that with rules that won’t exist until the first staggered vote is over with.

I’m not arguing for specific leg pieces. I really only had armor colors in mind. I’m pretty sure G1 only had 6 shins to begin with, anyway. There might be other details of importance, but armor color is the foremost and only significant one I can think of, since that’s more for deciding a character’s silhouette and shape language and we may also want to use different arms for the Hagah on those grounds, but Norik and Iruini both use Metru shins for arms.

[Pylonmadness]

Just cuz something exists doesn’t mean you can ignore it. The inika were a thing, and regardless of whether you think it’s atrocious color matching, they’re a team and that means toa teams don’t have to be the same color to have team cohesion. Plus you didn’t address the mahri or 2008 toa so there’s that

[Willess12]

@Ghid

People will then only vote based on what they think uniformity is or how they argue it to be instead of being content with the rules for consistency already written out.

Some people will
People who don’t care about consistency won’t.
Remind me, why is letting people vote for the stuff they care about a bad thing?

And while you’re at it, maybe you can explain to me why using different shins is suddenly a “better design”.

@Ghid

Which one is brown or metru brown?

(actually the rules mandate their rahaga colors. I don’t agree with that, but such is how it is)

@Ghid

Two identical Pouks exist. One has Rahkshi shins and the other has Piraka shins. Which is more canon?

well, Rahkshi shins don’t come in Mettur brown…
_{again, joke, not argument}

Okay. How is this pouks that has Piraka shins “better designed”?

@Ghid

That’s a bummer, since knowing what Norik and Iruini look like is part of the rules.

Good. Then knowing what the other Toa Hagah look like should be part of the rules, too.