I’m not. They’re a non-sequitur.
The Inika, again, weren’t given uniforms. They were created by the Red Star, a malfunctioning spaceship. The Hagah were purposefully given uniforms, a point you–once again–have completely ignored.
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For the sake of devil’s advocate, even though I agree with you:
The hagah all came from different lands. The inika all came from Metru Nui.
The Hagah all got their uniforms from different sources. The Inika got theirs from the same source.
One could argue the Inika should be more uniform.
But yeah, just because the Inika weren’t balanced doesn’t mean the Hagah have to be
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I assumed you were replying to me to argue the argument I was retorting to rather than to introduce a new one. My error.
This doesn’t actually solve the problem, unfortunately. The issue of what is and isn’t consistency exists whether or not Pouks has been built in advance. The questions of whether or not a Pouks with Piraka shins will fit in with the crowd is determined entirely by the first winner, and therein lies the issue; that me, as a Pouks builder, is going to have to conform to rules that at the present time don’t exist, use pieces pre-selected by the last three winners, but hey - at least this way he isn’t shooting in the dark, right? Now he knows exactly how far away the target is and how small the center has been made.
You’re on the side that more or less is. Armor colors I can see being an issue, yes, but not only have 90% of the theoretical entries being offered thus far only utilize old gold or silver (a LOT of silver ones, actually) but there’s only been one or two entries to have something more extreme than gunmetal as a deviation. Which IMO is kind of disappointing as the one design by Kodiak for a metallic blue kualus looks especially delicious, but ignoring community stigma over certain entrants there’s actually a really low chance of the winner deviating in that regard. Or any regard, really.
If people end up voting in a blue Kualus, maybe it’s because they want a blue Kualus over rigid consistency. Staggering the contests will only make it impossible for a blue Kualus to be entered in the first place, and I think the option to enter should be had.
Twisting my argument to attack it is a good way of me not bothering to respond. Keep that in mind.
Sorry, I should’ve spelled it out more blatantly.
Just because four of the Hagah use a certain shin piece should not mandate that the last two do, and expecting that to be a written rule is silly.
I’m really tired of you dancing around the argument instead of answering it directly. It’s making it difficult to respond to your retorts when they don’t even address the issue.
No! You’ve responded to my example retorting your strawman argument with a strawman argument with another strawman argument, missing the point entirely! Th-That’s not possible!!
Did Bomonga, Gaaki, or Kualus use Piraka shins prior to Pouks existing ?Yes? Then either one is canon. But if not, Piraka shins Pouks if completely and utterly non-canon and cannot be entered for violating the holy piece law.
This is stupid. Vote staggering, as a result, is stupid. Writing rules after the contest has begun is stupid, and there’s a rapid decline of reason to operate the contest that way.
Good thing we know what Marendar looks like, so we can have a contest to determine what he looks like.
Good thing we can determine some of the Hagah beforehand to force people into an even tighter box of how to design their character.
Vote staggering is stupid.
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I was under the impression that while the Hagah came from different places, Teridax was the one who gave them their metallic armor.
True, but coming from the same island doesn’t nessicarily mean that they’ll look the same. Lesovikk and Nikila look completely different, despite both of them coming from the same island.
Maybe someone could argue that they should be more uniform, but the fact is, they simply aren’t.
(PS, I know your just playing devil’s advocate, so I’m pretty sure that we are in agreement.)
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Ignoring that piece selection isn’t really of importance, that’s kind of my entire point. The colors to use will be a known variable by the time we get to Pouks.
Let’s assume there’s no chance of a gunmetal or copper Hagah winning his respective contest. We still have the problem of ratios: 4 or 5 gold to 2 or 1 silver, or vice versa. This only really works out if Norik and Bomonga are the outliers, simply because they’re the leader and deputy of the team; and that’s unlikely to achieve if everyone votes at once rather than having a chance to coordinate over time.
This is only a problem if Kualas isn’t the first to get in–and, if he is, that gives the other Hagah enough of a chance to have unique colors, or at least to have another option for armor colors.
Nothing exists in a vacuum, and each individual Hagah is really its own contest–different only from Helryx or Art in that they’re part of an established group of characters for which we have some representatives, and so they have to line up with those representatives in a big way. I agree that restricting limb choices is inane, but I don’t really think most voters are gonna care.
Color is one of the first things you see when you look at a Bionicle figure. In fact, I think it’s the very first thing you see because when you hear people who don’t know the lore try to identify a certain character, they talk about “the red one” or “the green one,” and that’s what kids ask their parents and grandparents for when requesting Christmas or birthday presents because Grandma doesn’t know what the ■■■■ a Bomonga is, she just knows the kid wants the little black Bionicle. That’s part of the importance of ensuring even color ratios, and why it’s so important for team cohesion. We have precedent for this in G2: half of the Toa had gold armor, and half of them had silver because this helps them to look consistent without all having the same armor color. It’s a huge component of character design, as big as shape language. Also, I’m OCD as ■■■■, so that’s kind of influencing what I want the numbers to be here.
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I sincerely apologize if it seems like I’m doing that. I have a tendency to try and break down an argument to it’s most basic premise to try to show what I think is wrong with it. In my mind, your argument prevents people from voting for things they want, and I hope to demonstrate that.
I must’ve missed the part where I said it should be a written rule, then.
I’ve been arguing to let people actually vote for it.
It’s entirely possible I’m missing your point, or just bad at arguing. I’m doing my best to address everything, though. If you have a point I can’t disagree with, I will say as much.
For example: I agree, not knowing what the others will look like when creating your Toa Hagah is a bad thing. This is, in my opinion, the one, biggest detriment to staggered voting(aside from lightning voting, if they add that in), and it is why I will take every opportunity to argue for an entry revision period @Mesonak.
I’m not saying that. I don’t think one is more canon, or better designed, or anything.
If a Pouks wins that doesn’t fit with the other three Toa Hagah after we know what they look like, that is a battle I would be fine with losing, because that would be the people’s choice.
If a Pouks wins that doesn’t fit with the other Toa Hagah because we didn’t know what they would look like, that isn’t the voter’s choice, it’s random bad luck.
Good thing Marendar isn’t part of a team.
For the sake of not just responding with a strawman, I’ll actually counter this.
What I understand is, you’re saying that It’s silly to argue that we need to know how something else looks to determine how what we’re voting for looks. And I’m arguing that yes, that is the case – except for the Toa Hagah, who are a very uniform team.
Also, I want to make something clear: there’s varying levels of how much I think a certain thing is or is not an issue.
Armor color is my biggest concern. The Toa Hagah are majorly mettalic, and if five are gold and one silver, that will look bad, IMO.
Leg design, however? Very low on the list, especially the instance we’re arguing about. If five of them have Vahki shins, leaving Iruini the only odd man out, that’s a bit annoying. But if 4 have Vahki shins, Iruini has lank shins, and Pouks has Piraka shins, Iruini doesn’t stand out as much.
Basically, if we have three gold and two silver Toa, and they all have Vahki shins: if I like one Pouks with Piraka shins and silver armor, and another has Vahki shins/Rahkshi shins and gold/pink/whatever armor, I’m going to vote for the one with armor that fits. That, to me, is the biggest issue.
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do NOT cite the deep magic reference that movie to me
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Do you realise how arrogant this sounds? You’re entertaining the idea of not letting certain people vote based on the criteria they are looking for in entries.
Shins are trivial in the grand scheme of things. I doubt most people will be stingy about this - heck, even I might vote for one with inconsistent shins.
But even so, if that’s how people vote anyway, then it’s not stupid. It’s a majority opinion.
The crucial issue here seems to be colouring. And I’ll remind you that the Inika do have consistent metallic colouring besides two having nonmetallic torsos.
In the case of post-2007 stuff, there’s a precedent for non-clone sets. There’s a precedent for semi-cloning for the Hagah.
So you admit that having a 3/2/1 split of colours could be an issue? Then why are you voting for simultaneous?
We’re not asking for rules saying “your Pouks must be gold because Gaaki and Bomonga are gold and we need an even split”. We’re just giving people who want an even split a chance to vote based on that.
Wait… do you think we’re asking for specific rules mandating consistency? That’s a sincere question, because I wouldn’t be surprised at how heated things are getting if that’s what you think we’re saying.
Can I just say I love that I made a point so malleable, people who disagree with me are using it?
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Four times as many parts compared to what?
Because four Toa Hagah combined have less parts than most of the Artakha entries.
… which they wouldn’t have to make if their Hagah had been the first contest.
Now people are modifying their entries based entirely off of the arbitrary decision of which Hagah goes first.
The randomness of it is, though.
The rules already stipulate that they have the exact same shield, exact same weapon type, exact same body shape, and exact same colour blocking.
No one’s going to look at a team of six Toa with these similarities and say “they can’t possibly be a team, since one has gold armour, two have copper, and three have silver”.
No, that’s the risk they’re being forced in to. If it’s literally the only way for them to submit their Pouks, that’s not a “risk”.
The problem with this is that the decision of which Hagah get to influence the later Hagah is completely arbitrary.
Compared to only wanting to enter one character. I can very much see people with limited parts or funds (such as myself) as viewing this particular contest as a way to shoot their shot.
Careful with the swearing. But I’m with you here. It’s going to take me a while to get used to an inconsistent colour ratio.
I think this was more to delineate the cheaper three from the more expensive three. But aesthetically, it’s satisfying that there is that 3:3 split (even if Kopaka shouldn’t have been gold).
Hence why I say it should be voted upon.
Also, let me put it this way: the fact that we have two to go off of is already arbitrary. We only have Norik and Iruini because some lego exec decided to, and then decided not to, make sets for Dume and Nidhiki.
Let’s look at this hypothetical: We have no sets for Norik and Iruini. The contest is for the whole team. TTV decides to stagger the voting, and Norik and Iruini wind up first. Is this arbitrary? Yes. Is it bad? In my opinion, no, because it gives us a more cohesive team look.
This… is a very good point, actually. You’re right, the presence of spears, shields, builds, and Mettalics will help immensely.
So I’ll counter you this: three silver, two copper, and a gold won’t look like it isn’t a team – but it won’t look good, either.
And if one has wildly different armor (i.e. four iruini clones, leaving Norik the only odd man out), i would say this makes Norik look more out of place.
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But they’re already a known variable now - gold and silver - and for some people, that’s enough to mandate two more gold and two more silver for exact team unison.
Except gunmetal exists in the entries. Gunmetal is popular enough in the more noteworthy entries to make it likely gunmetal will win. Okay, then what? If metallic blue wins, can any colour win? Or could any color have a chance of winning beforehand?
Either staggering the contests tells everyone how to build their consecutive entries - which I’m very much against - or it implies how they should be built, a suggestion for uniformity, which is little different from where we’re at now. Knowing which side of the isle you’re on helps me know whether or not I even have to debate you.
For the idea of a set wave, this matters. But canonically, not so much. There’s no written canon rule that Makuta didn’t just give sets of armour at random, based on whatever constituted a ‘precious metal’. And if we’re going by the general definitions of a precious metal nowadays, then Osmium surely must qualify as a real-world equivalent to a Hagah colour - metallic blue.
Personally, I’d like to see every Hagah have a unique metallic colour - old gold, pearl gold, old silver, gunmetal, metallic blue, and et cetera. If the vote is staggered, or the entire contest is staggered, the possibility of this won’t change. It’ll only be a suggestion for what the end result could turn out to look like - unless, of course, it’s mandated that they fit a colour code, which I am against.
Otherwise contest staggering simply gives the advantage of foresight, which already exists now, just in a less convenient form than what you’re suggesting. If there’s no new rule enforcement of any kind I’m not opposed to contest staggering - it’s vote staggering I detest. because it creates a stigma. Either possess the option to entirely design your entry around the new Hagah or be left conforming your previous idea to the whims of the winner who came before.
Once again, for everyone involved: I am not opposed to the contest staggering if the winner of the last contest was a suggestion. I am opposed to drafting new rules in the middle of a contest.
Please do without attacking my points. I’m thoroughly convinced I’m allowing for people to enter whatever they choose.
Your argument presents the winner of the first Hagah contest as a rule which must be followed.
I don’t want that. I want the rules on the table before any contests begin. If gold Bomonga wins, I don’t want there being a hard rule saying the remaining three must contain two silver and one gold. If Bomonga with Rahkshi shins wins, I don’t want a hard rule saying there must only be one more Rahkshi shin Toa to maintain cohesion.
If you’re arguing for any of that, I’m against you.
Which is solved by staggering the entire contest. But the issue of writing in new rules - the part you quoted - is not solved until someone says yes or no and people either agree or disagree.
Which is mainly what this post is doing. Leave a comment down below and let me know which is YOUR favorite opinion
Then are you going to make it a rule or give people the option to vote a certain way?
Also it wouldn’t be so bad because the silver one would just so happen to be the leader
Oh I love my arguments being twisted so bad their spines fuse, Let’s do it again sometime
They would still be perfectly capable of voting, don’t be silly. They just wouldn’t have the entire contest formatted around making them happy, at the cost of the rest of the voters and the people actually entering.
Implying a majority opinion can’t be stupid or that stupidity can’t be a majority opinion? Different things, I promise; The majority opinion being stupid is Hoseryx almost winning, and stupidity being the majority opinion is everyone arguing to have the Hagah write in new contest rules by winning in succession.
I’m very against that, if the entirety of this post wasn’t obvious. If staggering the contests will 100% NOT force people to only enter certain things, I’m fine with it.
I’m… Not saying that. I’m saying that the likelihood of a colour outside of gold/silver, ignoring the popularity of certain preexisting entries, is extremely slim.
Aboom boom boom and away we gooooooo
You made a point which managed to shoot itself in the head before it even finished, and for the opposing argument, that’s a very good point.
So I guess that counts as malleable.
Hmm, I wouldn’t shoot it till you see it. IMO metallic blue Kualus looks very good alongside gunmetal Bomonga, silver Norik and old gold Iruini.
I’m definitely not using this to bully Kodiak to make each of his Hagah a unique armour colour nooo
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It’s not that people will think they can’t possibly be a team. It’s that people will think they don’t look cohesive enough despite being a team - a team which has both a visual and narrative precedent for looking consistent (at least to some).
That would be people’s choice. If they’re concerned it won’t get voted for because it’s inconsistent, they can change it. If they’d rather not, they won’t. And there will always be people that won’t vote based on consistency anyway.
It doesn’t have to be:
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All right, I apologize.
No joke here, I’m being entirely sincere.
I’m not saying you’re against people entering what they want. I’m saying what you argue for prevents people from voting for what they want.
Then let me make this absolutely clear:
I absolutely agree that it shouldn’t affect the actual rules in any way.
They would be no more official than if people want to vote for entries that share the same thigh armor and feet as the ones we have. The entire point is that people can still vote for whatever they want, they’re just not voting blind.
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Literally no one is suggesting this.
Even if the decision is made to go with the staggered contests, this would not be a rule.
Absolutely nobody is arguing for rule-mandated consistency.
Unless you consider the addition of a new Hagah as a reference to be a rule.
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Surely you see how it’d become an unsaid rule. If you hear everyone saying “cohesion cohesion cohesion”, you aren’t going to make a MOC that doesn’t adhere to previous winning entries, because based off of previous discussion, no one will vote for it.
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Again, that’s up to people to decide. Unsaid rules are essentially people’s preferences, which is scarcely different from the prior contests.
Well in that case, I think your arrogance is at a respectable level 
I don’t know who misinterpreted who, but I apologise if I had any part to play.
And finally I agree with you on something @Ghid. We can’t add rules post-hoc, except ones which counter things like Hoseryx (which I imagine won’t intersect with issues regarding consistency).
Based on all this discussion, I think we’re going to be a lot better off if we stagger the Hagah contests and not just the voting. That’ll be at least a little less disheartening to those who feel like they need to modify their design. That means the contests will take longer, and I personally have no issue with that.
An alternative I’m interested in resurrecting in this discussion is the ‘mandate group entries, but allow collabs’ idea.
Another idea that’s in its infancy in my head is if we get to the semifinals of all four contests, then vote on what combination of Hagah win. Not entirely sure how this will work just yet.
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me no likey that
I still see it as irrelevant, but at least it doesn’t bring up as many issues as staggering only the voting does.
Except here any entry built even slightly better than stock Metru build design is going to have precedence in the visual department, even if the armour colour is wack or doesn’t fit the design mold set by previous winners. Which is, again, why certain people are going to have a significant advantage in the contests no matter what.
So it basically ensures those certain people are the only ones with a real chance at winning, and tbh I’m okay with that because I’d likely be voting for them anyway.
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