Organic/superpower “Radar Sense” is a bit different to actual radar technology. And again, to cite the example I gave, Bob Thompson was fine with Teleportation Kanoka, but insisted that the Kanohi made from those Kanoka was called a “Mask of Quick-Travel”. So there’s a degree of “consistent inconsistency”, if that makes sense.
I would also love to hear what Greg says about the whole matter, even if it’s just “That was a long time ago and I don’t really remember if that’s the right one or not.”
The fact that it’s built using only parts that were available in '05, including new and popular stuff like Rhotuka, as well as being photographed the way it is definitely is more than enough to convince me personally that it’s at least an authentic submission. That would be a lot of painstaking work to go to for a fake, it seems pretty genuine.
The question isn’t whether its fake. I think we all agree its legitimate. The problem is we don’t know which winning entry it actually is. It could be Phantom, but also one of the two unknown entries.
With this new information in mind, I might have to go back to my apparently-controversial statement of “we don’t know if this is canon”, but for a different reason. I was previously unaware that there had been two other unknown entries. Given the similarities, though, it is extremely likely that this is Phantom.
But the way forward is clear: we ask Greg. There are three replies he could give:
1- “Yeah, I remember that. That’s Phantom”. In this first case, these images are canon.
2- “That was a long time ago, I don’t remember”. In this case, I think we ask him to canonize this as Phantom anyways, just to tie up loose ends.
3- (Most unlikely option) “I remember that, and I remember that that is NOT Phantom”. In this case, we’re kind of stuck. First, these images are not canon, and Phantom’s appearance is still lost. But then what do we do with these pictures? Are they canonized as Unnamed Dark Hunter? Ultimately, though, it is very unlikely that this is the case. What are the odds of one of the lost winners resurfacing that just happens to match the description of the character based on a different lost winner?
The DH guide and the essay are very similar in content and wording, yes, but this isn’t a fair comparison; Phantom didn’t get a DH entry. Instead, I’d say it’s better to compare using Primal’s Encyclopedia entry.
Nuoka is one of the remaining warriors from a race which had its island overrun by the Visorak. His tribe held out against the invaders long enough to come to the attention of the Shadowed One, who recruited all of the warriors he could before betraying the position of the survivors to the Visorak and allowing them to be wiped out.
After turning to the side of the Dark Hunters, Nuoka refused most of the biomechanical tampering with his body which so many Dark Hunters go through to make them more powerful. The only change he accepted was the implanting of a small weapon underneath his body which can be maneuvered like an extra limb, and which fires bursts of paralzying energy. Despite this, he still does the majority of his hunting with the large bladed spear he has carried for decades and considers the implanted weapon a last resort.
Nuoka is a primitive hunter and, though he has been turned to an evil cause, still retains his own fierce sense of justice. His species, being a race of warriors, also has the custom of keeping a trophy from each major hunt. Much to the Shadowed One’s annoyance, this means that Nuoka often refuses to hunt quarry who have nothing which would look good mounted on his wall. Between his odd customs, fierce nature, and strong devotion, the Shadowed One often wonders whether it would be prudent to dispose of Nuoka before he causes more trouble than he’s worth.
I’d say none of this wording is similar and the Encyclopedia has added and changed things. (Where does the essay mention strength and speed? Nuoka’s spear was supposed to be his main attack.) It does still have more similarities than Phantom’s does, but a sample size of two isn’t much to go on especially when one of them is clearly an outlier, having skipped the DH guide entirely.
This is really neat! I will say that it is a lot different how it worked with my Furnace Salamander. I provided pretty vague details about it, figuring Greg would rather fill in the blanks. What is written about the Furnace Salamander is much better than anything I could have written at the time. The writing for Primal was definitely much better than the writing for my DH, so maybe he didn’t need to change it much? Who knows🤷🏻♂️
Another thing is that greg’s phantom description in the encyclopia keeps 2 very specific details from the essay, limited strength and flight. Casey’s concept essay says he can double his strength for a few minutes and can glide a limited distance at a time. These details are just as specific as the ones for primal/nouka. Remember that by this point (writing of the encyclopedia) greg had destroyed his copies of the essay and of the phantom images. The fact that phantom’s limited flight and strength along with the protodermis he had flowing within him were mentioned nearly 5 years later shows how greg must have remembered casey’s essay well enough to include those details.
Also another fun fact is that casey got a signed DH book, so he was one of the actual winners. Had the other 2 winning entries been eligible for entry to the book or magazine, greg surely would have mentioned how they were canon DHs as well. If all 3 were sent in and all had mailing issues, why is there only one known contest winner who attempted to send the model in but something went wrong? According to things like yari and mantas tamer, assuming the rules were the same, only the canonized models had their creators get sent signed DH books.
Edit: greg has stated that he was forced to destroy the photos and essay copies. If only one DH didn’t have the model make it in time, he’d more likely remember the essay, as he had seen tons of photos. Greg said he had to destroy all contest photos and essays 6 months later. It’s clear he remembered the essay for phantom since he couldn’t remember what phantom looked like. The “invisibility” trait may have been added since greg couldn’t remember what phantom looked like and since phantom had no legally published image, no one could see him. it made sense in canon, people could just say the phantom is invisible.
Also skello I know this was a reply to you but I’m aware you already know this, adding it for others to see.
Greg definitely had the essay I wrote for at least 6 months, but after that, I assume it had to be destroyed, so if the entry came out over 6 months later, then I suppose that that could be possible! Good thinking!
At least by going off of the Ask Greg forums, Greg was really reluctant to discuss/canonize details about contest winners since he didn’t write the backstory for the characters, he just revised it. So I am skeptical about the description discrepancies, However, I do think the “misremembering” theory is very plausible, if Greg really didn’t have the essay to go off of when writing the encyclopedia entry.
Another possible nuance, however, is if got confused and he mashed some Dark Hunter entry details together in his head, and that’s a source of error. And with no essays to go off of, they never could be corrected. That adds a lot of questions. (Is the encyclopedia entry for this model with other entry traits mixed in? Is the encyclopedia entry for a different model with some of this model’s details mixed in? Is it just misremembered? Is it a mix of both? My head hurts) but in the end, I really don’t think this will matter much (see below)
As for the canon debate, I think perhaps, we shouldn’t jump the gun. I think this model should be added to the Dark Hunters page on BS01 as an “unknown (possibly Phantom)” type entry (like the yari is on the Rahi page). Regardless, I have a feeling that, unless Greg explicitly remembers this entry NOT to be Phantom , he will canonize it as Phantom to tie off loose ends, but until that point, I think this is the best we can do.
Exactly. Does anyone know how Greg can be made aware of this so that a statement could be made? Even if the statement is “I don’t want to discuss this”?
That’s a good point, I should’ve used the encyclopedia entry initially since Phantom is only mentioned there, and not in the DH guide as well.
But even using the encyclopedia, I see exact similarities with Primal. His paralysis device, his species wiped out by the visorak, and taking trophies from missions. Those are all details straight from the fan submitted essay.
Phantom’s encyclopedia entry, however, uses almost none of the original essay (if Casey’s is actually Phantom), and includes details that weren’t in Casey’s essay.
Casey didn’t say he used to be a matoran crafter that was later experimented on, or that his conscience makes him reluctant of the DHs.
And alternatively, the encyclopedia doesn’t say he had a sword, Rhotuka, Kanoka, fangs, fiery breath, or a radar/tracer on his head.
I understand a lot would’ve been cut from the encyclopedia due to length, but I’m still concerned when none of these details from the essay made it in, and what did make it in wasn’t in the essay. There’s a huge disconnect.
I would really like this to be Phantom. No one likes having to look at “No Image” on BS01, myself included, so it would be great to replace it with Casey’s design. But I have to say it’s just not certain whether this is Phantom or one of the other two unknown entries. What is certain though is that a lost winning entry was found, and that is still great to see.
This is nothing like the yari, though. No offense. The yari was a winning model which wasn’t sent in, and the winner didn’t receive a signed book. Casey had to send his in, and recieved free sets and a signed DH book. Greg would have clearly mentioned if one of the other two entries was supposed to be sent in, as in that case, those entries would be canon. Anything greg wanted to be sent in for photography is canon, like the rock lion. Saying that casey’s model may not be phantom is like saying that the rock lion isn’t canon and the yari might be, which is totally untrue.
edit: the disconnect between the essay and encyclopedia entry was most definitely because it had been around 4 years since greg had seen the model or the essay, he only remembered some specific parts.
finally someone gets my point! greg was specific. If he decided not to canonize winners who were A) asked to be sent in, and B) failed to be sent in, phantom/casey’s model wouldn’t be a thing.
Yari and mantas tamer weren’t asked to be sent in, so aren’t canon. Rock lion was like casey’s model, requested to be sent in but it wasn’t, yet still canon!
So, to that effect, where could I find information about which winners were and were not asked to be sent in? Because I would have assumed that all Dark Hunter winners were asked to be sent in, but that is apparently not the case.
Not all the winners were posted. Creator of yari and mantas tamer actually posted photos online, and the yari even had the original letter. comparing it to casey’s letter from the same contest for furnace salamander, yari’s letter didn’t mention a signed book, nor a date to send in the models.
If the yari had been requested to be sent in, I feel like it would be canon. This an mantas tamer are only a few rahi which won but weren’t canon. I’d say that at best, those two rahi are like the equivalent of star wars legends/expanded universe
But those two were from the Rahi contest, not the Dark Hunter contest. Although it does set the precedent that not all winners were asked to be sent in.
Here’s what we know about the Dark Hunter contest:
There were 35 winners
32 of these winners were sent in upon request
The Phantom model was requested, but not sent
What happened to the last two? Were they also requested, but not sent, or were they not requested in the first place?
If the last two were not requested, and only Phantom was requested but not sent, then this is Phantom.
But, if there were one or two other models that were requested but not sent, this could be one of those two non-Phantom Dark Hunter models.
(Or were Yari and Mantas Tamer from the Dark Hunter contest?)
Thats where I’ll draw back to my point of greg being very specific. Greg would have given them names and made them canon, despite failing to be sent in.
Phantom wasn’t really mentioned in official books until the encyclopedia, however on some threads, people asked greg about other winning models without images, and he mentioned rock lion and phantom. These threads were around the same time the DH book released, in 06 I believe.
Considering that, it does seem quite likely that there was only one Dark Hunter model requested but not sent. Otherwise, as you said, Greg would have mentioned other such models when asked.
The Yari was mentioned in an ask Greg, referring to models that didn’t make the cut. Greg mentioned that models that didn’t make the cut either weren’t sent in on time or weren’t sent in at all. He didn’t say “wait, there was a lobster?” or “There were some winners that I didn’t intend to canonize”. On the contrary, for the winners that didn’t get into the book, he tried his best to get them out in published media somehow, whether it be as a mention, in a magazine, or in the corner of an encyclopedia. (I’ll edit this post when I find that link)
