1. Beginning of this topic
-Disclaimer: I might repeat myself a lot in this thread-
So in this topic I want to create a discussion on how the Japanese Oni in mythology & other media contrasts a bit too much with Ninjago´s take on the legend and overall how I think that that (IMO at least) Ninjago did not do enough justice to the demon of Japanese Legend if not got it wrong PLUS they kind of dropped the ball on their own spin(jitzu) on the Japanese Myth especially when you consider how the Oni were depicted together with the Dragon in the 2D animated magic tea acid trip vision and overall how they are in mythology and portrayed in pop cultures that does great homage to myth.
I might have let some people on this forum know is that I do have some objections/gripes (pet peeve ones probably) towards/with Season 8-10 aside from the obvious thing I am discussing here in this thread, mainly such as it came right after the movie with the same designs/story focus and characters with said designs (which causes me to raise and eyebrow and wonder what is the meaning of that) + I feel like they wasted the whole Lloyd becoming a Sensei Arc* S7 quality aside, (*Granted Dragons Rising is basically trying that…5-8/9 years later from S7 & directly after 2022 was supposed to let the franchise rest…S15 may not have been the finale that the series deserved but then again those finales have long passed), a handful of seemingly unsolved or at least barely/not properly touched plot points previously established before 2018, at least to me (Season 11-14 & I guess 15 did not really help & when they did it barely helped) and I feel like the ”Evil Cult” storyline was done slightly better 4 seasons prior (and that one was not even demonic style cult) because the SoG-”cult” felt more like a strictly Yakuza/Sons of Anarchy/Gangsta thingy with access to magic shenanigans than anything much cultish vibe (with maybe exception of the power ranger looking guys) which could have been fine if they did it more in the direction of how the Anacondrai Cult did it.
However obviously I am not here to talk about those objections & (pet peeve) gripes as I have mentioned, especially not when I have made it clear that I do not feel like making an in-depth topic where I harping on post 2015/16 Ninjago more than necessary yet alone go in full detail with the mentioned objections & a little extra gripes/objections etc etc because I do not want to come across as insulting someone for liking something I personally have gripes, ruin someones enjoyment or cause arguments (debates, questioning & disagreements that unintentionally become desperate and slightly less than honorable debate tactics ends up getting used are one thing but outright abrasive/immature unfunny remarks towards someone instead of questioning & challenging the thinking yet alone simply asking “why though?” is where I draw the line) plus it is already bad enough I brought up a few and harped on the gripes even just a little that is not the focus of this topic. And whether it’s true or not that the Ninjago Movie ultimately had a role in the story & direction of the series and season is at this point like “whatever man” I just cannot help to raise an eyebrow when thinking about how S8-9 came after the movie & all that with the major characters etc Pattern Fallacy aside.
Instead I am going to stick to the topic & as mentioned, have a discussion how Lego handled (at least in regards to Ninjago) the concept of the Oni. Specifically I want to discuss on how I feel like how they did not get the legend/myth of the said Japanese Yokai-Demon right & did not pay proper homage to it (and actually not even really doing it justice to their own take on the Oni myth in my biased pet peeve POV) and to see if there are other mythology enthusiasts who would agree. So yeah, consider this to be a sort of the “Mythological Inaccuracies in Disney Hercules” IYKYK but it is about Ninjago’s take on the myth.
I will say this to be critical of myself though: It has been a really long while since I watched any Ninjago post 2015-ish so I may have forgotten much details because of it has been so much time and the fact that I just not that interested in anything post-2015/2016 ish Ninjago as it is so I may have forgotten some things or not being interested enough so I could be unfair & biased here so do feel free to correct me if I have forgotten something/getting something wrong/overall being unfair & biased.
Additional Notes:
This is basing off any information long before the series was even further dragged out longer with Rising Draconians with whatever more info they could have brought up about the Oni and I really don´t care about 2023 and onwards just let the franchise rest ages ago already.
2.So what are/were Oni in the Japanese Folklore, Mythologies + religions and how do they compare to Ninjago´s take on them
The word Oni in Japan used to be for what nowadays the word “Yokai” is used for; A catch-all-word for ghosts, spirits, supernatural creatures that are not divine but at best neutral & at worst chaotic or malevolent. Later on the word “Oni” became more narrow and began to mean a specific creature or rather demon thanks to Buddhist influences (Buddhist Astrology with depictions of Yaksha & Rakhasa) and since Shintoism is basically Japans Mythology/Folklore the Religion, concepts & ideas from Japanese Buddhism does tend to end up being a part of Shintoism because well it is part of Japanese society (which off topic discussion here; Considering that Christianity is nowadays a recognized religion in japan, wouldnt it be funny if concepts from Christianity/Bible/Church would end up in Shinto? Such as Yahwe/Deus/Ellohim or simply Bible God having a part in the creation of the first Kami and basically forming the rest of the world outside of Japan while letting Kami do mostly the rest or something along those lines? While Church & Christianity/Bible would never let foreign concepts into their canon cuz heresy & false idol worship, Shintoism is different with having buddhist concepts ending up in its would be canon it is a fun thing to think about. But I Digress).
The Oni in mythology can vary individually, some of them were always Oni but some of them are former humans who were transformed by some supernatural means (a common theme with asian demons in contrast to how westerners define “demon”) with a prime example being the tale of Shuten-Doji, or were transformed into Oni in the (buddhist) hells as punishment. Another major difference with not only Oni but also Asian & Eastern “Demons” besides pointing out what I have already pointed out that they can be former natural things that have absorbed too much chi/ki, being former people or animals etc but also that despite the connotations the word “Demon” has in the western world, in ancient cultures like Mesopotamia but also even various East Asian cultures/mythos Demons did not literally have to be inherently evil or chaotic (In fact the word “Demon” comes from the Greek Word Daimon/Daemon which simply meant spirit and back then Cacodaimon/Cacodaemon was the word describing evil spirits or what we call today “Demons” whereas Cacodemon is associated with that one icon for Doom Games) but even evil demons could redeem themselves (wether it be in Oni case they convert to Buddhism or become a guardian for family or even messager for the gods) or be a necessary evil/necessary force of nature (which obviously feels outlandish compared to us westerners who grew up with christian yet alone secularized christian point of views/culture/society/whatever) with (in case of Japanese Mythology) some Oni in the Buddhist Hells were genuine punishers of the wicked even rather than just evil demonic torturers who loves to torment mortals for the hell of it.Typically the Oni are red but ones in different colours exist too. More information of the mythologies of the Oni can be viewed here (granted some have AI Voice/Text To Speech narration so take it what you will depending on your biases towards certain types of narrated videos or videos):
some yt mythology videos, I would suggest you watch a couple of them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsMfGpw2hO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_u3I65lvWQ
In pop cultures, Oni also makes various appearances, whether it be directly, referenced or a combination of directly or referenced in one way or another. With Akuma from Street Fighter for example in his transformed form simply called Oni and even what is left of Evil Ryu post SFIV, Kage also probably references the myth of the demon from hairstyles to the color of their skins both in game & artwork wise. In works like Inuyasha & DS KnY Oni may be in more humanoid sized forms (though not all of them particularly with the former) but they have appearances based/loosely based on various Yokai from mythologies in a way presumably paying homage to the fact Oni used to be a word to describe all sorts of Yokai before it became narrow and is also more or less homage to the idea of Oni being former humans who were transformed into Oni.
Now why the heck am I telling you all this? Because to me I do feel like that Ninjago not only got the concept of Oni wrong, but also did not do their own vision (oh well at least going on by the first impressions by the Oni Masks & the Tea Acid Trip story of 1st realm & FSM) really that much justice either. Because compare it to the Oni in mythologies and even in other franchises/series paying homage plus how they were initially presented in the tea acid trip thingy (and the fact the masks literally have more than one color of the color black) to what the series eventually got:
In the magical tea flashback acid trip thingy you could get the sense that the Oni were basically roughly a similar size of the Dragons (Or oh well maybe it only looked like that at first glance considering the FSM in the flashback looked almost as big only slightly shorter so potato I guess for all of us who thought the Oni were going to be big). Honestly that flashback story & FSM’s backstory was honestly one of the couple things I admittedly kinda liked about 2018-2019’s arc, granted I still think FSM’s backstory should have remained a mystery to a degree, that or I think it could have been similar yet different but that is a discussion for another time. And the fact that the First Spinjitzu Master tried to make peace between the two factions of creatures (and as far as I can remember though I could be wrong that it was not stated that the Oni were completely evil other than they had the power of destruction) would give you the sense that it indicated that they (much like their original mythological counterparts) would be more to them than just them being 2 dimensional evil destroyers for the sake of it but rather force of nature only doing & following their instincts & purpose, if not on a collective level then at least depending on tribe/clan & individual level…sort of like the various dragons seen throughout the franchise.
And with the existence of the Oni Masks being in more unique colors than black which in turn supposedly were based on warlord Onis (if I remember correctly) which could hint for the potential of Oni having different colors and there to be different breeds & tribes (of course the masks existence makes you wonder why they were not like thrown into the bottom of the sea to prevent their usage but that is besides the point and lets be real the same can be said for this or that in previous seasons I can concede on that). So, how were the Oni in Ninjago coming up, how much would they pay homage to the original myths, how would their own take on the mythos be, would they be genuinely interesting and mysterious like in the flashback of FSM’s origin? Well to me at least they did not pay proper homage to the Japanese Mythologies & did not even deliver on their own (initial from the tea flashback dragon & oni tale) spin on the myth, lemme explain:
The Oni we ended up getting to see were more or less basically a bunch of overglorified stone warriors before vengestone warriors became a thing (with same colors as each other & stuff). They did not even come in different colors, clothes, robes or sizes (except maybe for the short minifig ones but that’s hardly sporting). Which begs the question why though? Oni in mythology come in various forms & shapes, even if they needed to have Oni in the shapes of people because the Mystake reveal & what not, they still could (and should) have been unique by coming in different colors & robes and why not have some of them be basically (in terms of set form) constructable action figures (like the DC, Marvel, Star Wars even Chima) plus other types of giga “minifigs” (you know the types, the trolls/big goblins from Castle, that one big pirate from skybound Ninjago itself, the gigantic monsters from Power Miners, I presume you know which type of model I am talking about right?). There are multiple ways they could have which brings the question why they did not? Did they have time constraints or something? Oni in mythology not only come in various colors yet alone clothing more than just black but there are more or less even in mythology various breeds/forms/concepts/names of Oni in the forms such as Reiki, Mazoku, Daimao & Kijin so why not adapt such concepts into the series and that way they could have normal humanoid sized Oni models/characters alongside bigger ones instead of just small/normal sized minifig ones? It would have been smarter if the Oni came in different colors & robes/clothes with some of the clothes being tiger/jaguar skin in a Flintstones Caveman type of clothing which would add some “humor” to them & pay homage to the depictions of Oni wearing tiger pelt pants/underpants. Also why don’t more of them wield Kanabo clubs, them wielding Swords & Axes are fine because there are depictions of Oni in mythology doing that but what about the Kanabo Clubs? Did I miss something & not realize one of the weapons were meant to be Kanabo Clubs? Like you could literally replace them with DnD stock enemies or something and the results would mostly be the same.
At that point to me it would have been better if the Oni really were treated as a complete mystery or better yet being like the Dragons (both in size and/or otherwise) with the main threat of them being hungry for flesh of/from smaller beings just like how the malevolent Oni in Japanese mythology are man-eaters. Especially when specifically Omega´s existence as the first ultimate evil villain before Overlord more or less can be argued to essentially turn Overlord being “The blackest of darkness that EXISTED FROM THE VERY BEGINNING” into a moot point. Now okay look I suppose you could argue that technically & semantically (not that something should be dismissed for “playing semantics” because words used to have meanings) that Overlord only was the first evil/villain in the REALM of Ninjago which I mean I can suppose it is a valid interpretation/way to frame it, reconciliation is all well & good. To me the gripe is that it just demystifies the importance of The Overlord in a way but whatever I suppose there is no entirely right or wrong on the subject. It does however very much bring the next point up though: Why did FSM not just side with the dragons & wipe the Oni all out if seemingly all Oni were always intent to be "harbingers of doom intent of going after the realms of creation” seemingly for the sake of it with no grander purpose, if the Oni in Ninjago Universe were not simply necessary forces of nature (like of the philosophy of something the lines of “before creation there is destruction and after destruction there is rebirth”) but really just harbingers of doom seemingly all of them. Actually that is not even true, they could be antagonists in the sense of wanting to reset the universe by wiping it all out and then expecting the dragons to create something better because they think the Ninja suck at their job for hmmm idk maybe some forgotten plot element of 2016 & earlier, plus getting hundreds of free meals in the process (aka eating & gobbling people). Thus paying homage to the “punisher of sinners”, “man-eaters”,”antagonistic demons” and “Force of Nature” part more or less. OR, The Omega could have been (as I have previously stated once in a much different thread) as not truly a pure-blooded Oni but rather a usurper who not only turns out to be the son of Overlord making Omega into half-Overlord Half-Oni but also usurped the titles of chiefs and Omega from the original Omega & other potential chiefs/warlords. Essentially this hypothetical different Omega would have been a Anti-Garmadon (and not just Lord is dark side of Sensei Garmadon but rather the Anti-Garmadon as a whole character of Garmadon) and I guess a Anti-Wu (assuming hypothetically Overlord would only have 1 son).
(warning: this part is where I get a tad too petty, maybe unfair, maybe mean & biased with my pet peeve objections)
(warning: this part is where I get a tad too petty, maybe unfair, maybe mean & biased with my pet peeve objections)
And I know someone might comment “But what about Mystake! She could be a reference to the duality & complexes of Oni in Japanese Mythos” and you know what come to think of it I have realized that is what is maybe being referenced with her…Huh. BUT even then honestly the reveal of her being an Oni more or less comes across as being a Buttpull & a half at least to me. Like there was little to no foreshadowing that I could think of (unless you could reach and claim S8-forward had foreshadowing because obvious reasons I guess) that she was a Oni (yet alone a pureblood one) like so you are telling me that the little kid in the shop next to her at the counter when Wu was going for travellers tea in Rise of the Snakes like was not her grandchild and if the kiddo is/was her grandchild is he/she also a Oni or quarter Oni? And also, if Ninjago (the realm) being beautiful being the motive of her being the “complex Oni” begs the question; How come Mystake be the only Oni who thought the realm was beautiful to the point defecting, how come there not be more Oni to defect to Ninjago because they thought the realm was beautiful? And what prevented the dragons from perfecting the art of creation to make the 1st realm glorious so a majority of Oni would stop?
You know, a buddy & associate of mine has pointed out that people who tend to throw shade at Crystalized for the whole golden oni being a wasted form they tend to pick & choose and neglect the fact that (alongside also picking and choosing on other things when throwing shade at Crystalized neglecting that prior seasons or even franchises they might like outside Ninjago is part of the same trends of story decisions/flaws they hold Crystalized against but lets not go there) the Oni were never really that special to begin with ever since they were established in S9-10. And I have to kinda agree with my homie not because we defend Crystalized or think it is a very good season because we don’t (oh well, other than maybe thinking it WAS the biggest bone the franchise could have gotten to be put out of its misery quality aside). But because the Oni were already a massive waste so there was little to nothing to be let down that much by the Golden Oni form (among other things previous seasons arguably did wrong first but lets not go there. And like look, everyone is guilty of picking & choosing so like whatever, it is just that some are better at hiding it than others or at least admitting it and thus there is only so much blatant picking & choosing one can do before it becomes a bit too on the nose).
I get that when it comes to adapting a creatures/whatever from mythologies into a work/ip/whatever especially of very obscure creatures/concepts/mythologies there will be changes to them so that they can fit in the IP/Universe and to make them come across as less archaic & boring to modern audiences & their standards of what “defines as cool” even if it means drastically altering them to a degree. In fact I myself make adaptational changes to obscure archaic mythological creatures even maybe sometimes drastic ones so maybe i should not be talking (that) much. But one should at least be allowed to expect that they pay proper homage to the legend & do something interesting with their own take on it, when the first flashback Lego/Ninjago first presents the Oni as these giant beings roughly in the size of the dragons only for them ending up basically being overglorified stone warriors before vengestone warriors became a thing, The Tea Acid Trip giving the sense & implication of the Oni being more or less complex & mystical with FSM wanting peace between them & dragons only for them to 99,99% end up being evil “harbringers of doom wanting to bring destruction to realms of creation” with barely any individuality (Granted there is Mystake but like I said in my opinion that reveal felt like bordering on being a buttpull & a half) which at that point FSM might as well have 100% sided with the Dragons and gone full Warhammer 40K/Old Testament or Book of Revelations divine punishment/retribution on all of them. It does really feel like besides not really getting the concept of Oni as they could have but also not doing justice to their own spin on the legend (at least not doing justice to how the Oni were portrayed in the tea flashback).
Actually, even if they had to be limited to normal sized humanoid minifigs then why not make them more unique in appearance then once again like i previously asked, why not make them more unique individually like why not at most take a page from Inuyasha or DS KnY and make them look like yokai in humanoid forms & at required adequate minimum give them different unique colors & robes/clothing and take it further and have the Oni Variants represent a different form of Destruction because the Oni have more powers than just what Ninjago presented, like the mythology videos stated, they have brute strength, weaponry (clubs being their number 1 while katanas being number 2), spreading disease & natural disasters, I mean I suppose if you can argue that Element of Destruction or rather the violet purple flame force called Destruction DOES represent/pay homage/reference the Oni of Mythology causing natural disasters. BUT even then the Element of Destruction was established way before the Oni were established, that and it would be more creative to show forms of Destruction via summoning disasters, quakes, corrosion, acid, hurricanes, storms, disease etc etc so why not give the Element of Destruction such side-powers instead of just being literally manifestation of destruction. Like the Dark Oni could have the “main force” aspect of (The Element of) Destruction while hypothetical other colors could like have other aspects of Destruction (think like the Rahkshi, the Bohrok or get this even the Serpentine from same franchise).
Examples of how Oni look like in mythologies & cultures
TL;DR, they are more colorful & unique than Ninjago offered and it really is suprising Ninjago did not just take notes from the various artworks of japanese mythology
3.Closing part so far of this post
Or what do you think? Do you think that Ninjago did not pay the Mythology of the Oni proper homage if not getting the concept wrong for a lack of a better term & yet alone not even doing their own take (judging from the Dragon & Oni tea story) justice? Or do you think I was biased, unfair, ignorant (if not forgetting something or getting things wrong) with my pet peeve objections which I suppose you could argue that, after all I could be a bit biased & note It has been ages since I watched anything post 2015-2016 ish Ninjago related so I might not remember all the details properly or being unfair. That and I will admit that a lot of my criticism/pet peeve objections were arguably about creative differences rather than critiquing it to improve it and still remaining the same story, but in my defence I will say 90% of all modern day critiques/criticism of any fiction is more or less creative differences as in disagreeing/objecting to/with the writer/author´s vision rather than anything else so at that point I might as well partake in it. I will say this however to clarify any misconceptions with the point of this thread: I am not asking the Oni of Ninjago to be “good misunderstood demons” (at least not in the way how majority of millenial writers in the west have tried to get sympathy for le devils of hell through inadequate “deconstructions” & “subversions”) but rather to be complex beings who are just a mirror/counterpart to the dragons of creation and overall that there would be proper homage to the original mythos with the designs and all other things mentioned.
Skybound was such a bad season…
The Overlord was interesting at first (and by that I do mean his first few episodes), but he very quickly became Ninjago’s most generic villain, to the point that most Ninjago fans were not cheering when he returned in 2022.