shields being on vs in the hand doesn’t matter that much and it looks a lot less awkward for bomonga to have it on his arm than in his hand
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It does because other entrants that had the shield in a similar way were told to change it, while Double was not, which is unequal treatment. If it’s not an issue, then there’s no problem. If it is, I want to know why or how this happened, and how it can be fixed. I honestly do not understand the hostility in response to that.
If they changed their minds, they should have made it clear and changed the rules to reflect that. They did not.
So you admit the rules were ignored in this case? Whether you personally think that’s not a big problem doesn’t matter. Whether TTV thinks its a problem or not matters, and so far they haven’t said anything.
All Meso or Eljay have to do is say “it’s fine” and that’ll be that. If they haven’t said anything about it because they don’t see it as an issue like you all claim, why not just directly say it to end this?
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because it’s implicit and it’s a waste of time to address a non-issue
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The hostility is because you’re contriving a mountain from a lump of dirt adjacent to a molehill. It changes nothing about the model or the entry or the contest itself. If TTV broke their own rule–which has virtually no bearing on anything of importance–what do you think is gonna happen? They’ll start the entire contest again? They’ll decanonize Bomonga entirely? They’ll order a hit on Greg, or Double, or both? They’ll poop your pants?
They allowed the entry. That says everything you need to know. You’re whining just to whine, and we all know it. Cope, seethe, touch grass, etc. This inconsequential detail doesn’t have the earth-shattering importance you hold attribute to it.
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I may not be a mod anymore but my god you all need to chill.
I, for one, am also curious what the Meso/Eljay ruling will be solely because it was such a big deal in the past that entries had to follow the rules, to the point where someone who’s art had skated past the review process (admittedly by my own fault) and broke one rule necessitated an entire restart of the voting process.
Consistency is Key and asking for clarification when the people in charge of running things are conspicuously absent isn’t the worst thing when the result of that clarification has wide-spread effects on what we regard as Canon.
Just because someone doesn’t think it’s a problem, doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be addressed at all. And more importantly, Dag’s allowed to ask, and you’re allowed to ignore him.
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I hope this isn’t too annoying but is it required that Bomonga’s shield be on his arm or can it be on his back?
We don’t need to explain it. TTV set the rules, TTV runs the contest, TTV says its OK, so it is OK. End of.
You are correct, he isn’t literally holding it in his hand, but TTV accepted the entry, they ascended it to the art contest, and they probably aren’t gonna restart the whole contest now, so there is no point discussing it anymore. It is done with.
And therein lies the cause of the ad hominem attacks. User like you who on this forum have picked on every single big and small detail of these contests for weeks on end, with no apparent end goal other that sowing discord, argument, and in most cases preaching the end of the contests all together, have made this whole exercise incredibly tiring and incredibly unfun.
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Please refer to Kini’s statement above. I believe his statement eloquently put it as to why the question is still valid
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I’ll start this by saying that I agree with most people here that Bomonga’s shield placement doesn’t really affect the final results, and the fact that TTV let it through shows that they’re okay with it. I completely disagree with any kind of redo or anything like that.
However, I also agree with @Dag that we should have some kind of explanation. Given the past controversies with the rulesets, and especially given all the discussion that went into the Hagah rules, we don’t want to be setting any kind of precedents for seemingly-random rule-breaking. Even if the explanation is something as silly as “we meant to change the rules but forgot to tell everyone” or “his hand was too ambiguous”, that at least reassures us that the rules weren’t being intentionally ignored.
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Just as a general rule in this situation and most situations involving these contests, patience is key.
I think at this point its obvious that the admins have a lot on their plates, and sometimes take time to rectify some issues. That being said, while waiting for a response, that does not give any of you the right to start jumping down each other’s throats. We’ve temporarily closed down topics before because no one could behave, and we’ll do it again, so please remain calm until the issue is cleared up and don’t start a second Matoran civil war in the meantime.
Thank you.
-Prentice1215
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I do want to clarify something: as far as I can tell, Double’s entry is the only one to skirt the rules like this. Every other entry had the shield in the hand/on the back, but Double’s was the only “grey area” entry with wrist attachment.
Yes, Meso did post the watch analogy, which technically speaking should have meant this moc was DQ’d. But it wouldn’t be unequal to allow it, since no other entry was DQ’d for a wrist shield/asked to change a wrist shield.
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We are aware of this situation and once we are ready, we’ll be issuing a statement on the matter. We’d appreciate an exercise of patience in the meantime. Thank you.
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I 100% agree with this.
The people that are complaining about Dag complaining are literally just as bad as those people complaining about Dag complaining.
If you don’t like what he has to say, and you don’t want to discuss this issue further, then why even bother continuing to engage it with him? It makes no sense. People are complaining about Dag, but then they reply to him which is resulting in the conversation continuing. Evidently the people complaining about Dag must not hate this conversation too badly then, seeing as they keep wanting to discuss it with him…
Like Kini said, if you don’t like it, ignore it. I understand that both you all and Dag are obviously entitled to your own opinions, but the people discussing this are all about as bad as each other when doing so.
Also Dag, I think we get your point. You don’t have to repeat the point you’ve brought up over and over again. If Eljay and Meso aren’t here, then wait patiently like the rest of us.
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That’s a massive overstatement. I only said something about it today because of the very extended silence from TTV when this was first brought up. All I wanted was at least some acknowledgement, and now we have it thanks to Eljay.
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I was mainly referring to your replies. The amount of times you brought it up wasn’t overly terrible, but I could definitely see why some people were getting frustrated.
Again, what I said isn’t at just you. It’s kind of more so towards anyone in regards to the situation. I wanted to clarify this so you didn’t feel like I was just picking on you, because I wasn’t.
Ah yes, the floor here is made of floor.
(I know what you mean, just found the unintended redundancy funny)
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For starters: Those who know us and know how we operate our contests would know, by now, that we usually stay silent about overly controversial things during the entry/voting periods unless we need to make distinct intervention. Then, when the contest is over, we conduct an in-depth podcast, speak about the proceedings openly and candidly, and address feedback on how things went down. This contest is no different, and you can expect our full opinions on everything that happened after the art portion concludes. We planned to follow that precedent and discuss it at the end, but since it’s a discussion topic… here we go.
We have a lot to say on this, so this will by no means be the last we speak about it, but for the purpose of a statement: To be completely blunt, Double’s MoC being allowed through was an oversight on our behalf that we did not notice, and was not brought to our attention, until after the voting period had concluded.
That’s really the long and short of it. There’s no great conspiracy, there’s no secret behind the scenes reason, there’s no hidden agenda… it was a mistake, plain and simple. When looking at his entry picture, our eyes gravitated towards other aspects of the design and we didn’t notice the fingers peeking through the shield at the bottom. This might be an unsatisfying answer for some, but it is what it is. We’re not happy about it, trust me, but we’re humans and we made a mistake.
So, you may ask: why not take action against it? Aren’t the rules meant to be enforced? Yes, yes they are. We have no issue disqualifying entries that break the rules, and have done so in the past. We would have mandated this be changed if we had caught it before it won, and if it hadn’t been changed, it would’ve been disqualified. However… it won. People liked it and voted for it on the MoC’s merits. Ultimately, you could say it’s Double’s fault for breaking the rules, but to be honest, the responsibility lies with us for not noticing it. As such, we don’t feel comfortable rescinding the MoC’s rightful victory because of an oversight on our part. That wouldn’t be right, and would just serve as a much larger source of controversy for the majority who supported it.
Does the MoC actually break the rules? Yes… but also, not really. Let me explain. Honestly, @vootcaboot puts it way more succinctly than I can:
This is our stance, in a nutshell. Yes, Double’s MoC violated a rule that we put in place, and as such, had we not made a mistake, it should have been disqualified. However, when considering why we put the rule in place, Double’s MoC doesn’t violate those principles. We didn’t want people incorporating the shields in ways that didn’t suit their intended purpose, and to keep as much parity as possible with the way that Norik and Iruini wield them. We felt like the simplest way to do that would be to restrict people wielding the shields in odd or abstract ways (I saw a lot of people wanting to mount them on shoulders, use them as a surfboard, etc.). As such, while Double’s MoC breaks the rule on a technical level… ultimately, we’re happy with the result and it’s perfectly suitable for the spirit of both the contest and the Toa Hagah.
What about the size comparison? We’ve seen people discuss that too, how Double didn’t provide a proper size comparison between Whenua and Iruini… Once again, spirit of the rule vs. the letter of the rule. We didn’t want people entering weirdly tall Hagah or super short MoCs, so we implemented a rough spectrum of Hagah sizes to ensure an accurate representation. As such, even if he were slightly shorter than Whenua or slightly taller than Iruini… it’s not a problem in our eyes, as it would still be within the general spectrum. However! We do take note of the fact that Double was pretty blatantly messing around and not taking the guidelines seriously, using a height comparison picture between Turaga Whenua and Rahaga Iruini. That hasn’t escaped us, and we’re gonna be discussing that going forward.
You guys need to take responsibility! You have to treat the rules of these contests seriously and uphold an even standard! You’re right, and we are taking responsibility for this; it was our bad, at the end of the day. Ultimately, some of you will probably find this response unsatisfactory, and there really isn’t anything I can do about that. Double’s Bomonga is a good representation of the character and people clearly enjoy it, so we ultimately feel that’s what matters most. However, we do understand the concern. Ultimately, no matter our own feelings on the rules, or how tiny and insignificant the rule violations are, the fact is that Double did violate multiple rules and still ended up allowed through regardless. Whether people agree or disagree with our rules, whether they think they’re justified or stupid, we did spend months deliberating them for a reason. Often times, our rules are designed to serve a greater purpose, and are deliberately very specifically worded to prevent loopholes. As such, we agree that what happened here isn’t the ideal situation. It’s pretty frustrating for us, and we’re going to be taking steps to ensure this doesn’t happen again going forward. My initial idea is to greatly expand our contest operational staff, to have more eyes actively reviewing each entry to make sure rule compliance is in full order.
To anybody who feels… idk, inconvenienced or whatever by this outcome, I’m sorry. In the end, I feel very satisfied by the winners of the contest and I’m happy with our final designs. I look forward to seeing what everybody creates in the art portion, and you can look forward to our more detailed thoughts on the events of this contest in our post-poll discussions and our Nak & Jay episode.
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FYI, Bomonga isn’t shorter than Metru Whenua. They’re surprisingly the same size. Pic (Whenua stand-in) to compare.
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Well there you go! The people who were saying that weren’t even right, lol
Thanks for that. I’ve reworded the statement. 
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A variation of this disclaimer may be worth adding to the initial posts of future contest topics, if just to avoid people crying out “*Why don’t Meso/Eljay/the mods say anything about X happening!”
I was going to specifically ask about this, so I’m glad you partly addressed it here. From an outsider’s perspective, it seems like it’s just you and Eljay enforcing the contest rules, while the rest of the mods are enforcing the board rules, though I fully admit I could be way off base with this. That wouldn’t necessarily be a problem if not for the large amount of entries in these contests, and the massive amount of replies that can generate in the main canon contest thread that need to be kept an eye on. So giving the mods more authority in the contests I think would be a good thing.
If you guys are looking for alternatives though, I do recall how when BZP ran their contests they would ask members of the community to volunteer to be judges/officials and check entries to make sure they were compliant with the rules. I’m not sure how feasible that is here and now, but it might be worth thinking about.
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