They started off being reasonably positive, but the fact that Ghid’s perspective on the matter is getting a decent amount of traction (at least in the form of likes on his posts) suggests to me that there’s a growing bitterness about the debating; Ghid’s perspective being, if I’m to steel-man his argument, that the debating is redundant and stressful (I’d disagree with the former for the most part, but the latter is certainly true).
Based on the popularity of this post in particular, I’m genuinely concerned that there will be people who are so frustrated with the debating that they will deliberately vote for entries that protest the debating, rather than picking something they think is the best interpretation of the character. This is reminiscent of (though by no means as extreme as) people voting for Hoseryx as a means of protesting the contests.
I’m not so much concerned that the occasional person votes this way, rather that it could turn into a movement like the aforementioned Hoseryx meme. If history repeats itself, my concern about this and future contests will only worsen.
The core problem of the contests is still that they force something on people who like to keep true to canon.
All these discussions, all the voting, the entire contests would be more fun for everyone if they were simply “what if” contests instead “what is” contests.
Oh yeah, I agree: I’ve no doubt that people are tired of the Hagah debates.
One thing I will say, though: I think that’s an issue exclusive to the Hagah. You didn’t see near that much debate about Arty or Helen (even Hoseryx was never that level). I expect (and hope) that the other contests, for less strictly defined characters, will have less debates, hopefully on par with what we saw with the first two.
I think this is almost certainly true, though that doesn’t guarantee there won’t be some controversy with each contest. For me personally, the Hagah have taken it out of me in terms of the contests as a whole, and we haven’t even seen the outcome of the voting yet. That and I fully agree with Gilahu’s perspective on forced extensions to canon.
I’m only engaging with this conversation to provide a retrospective summary on the Metru build debate having been several months removed from it now. I do not want to drag this out any more than it has, and I will say nothing more on it after this point.
As one of the main contributors to the Metru build debate, yes, it definitely did go on far too long, and frankly shouldn’t have been a debate at all. Not for the reason some may think (that “Metru” refers simply to the strict Metru torso), but that were was simply no canon reason to ban custom torsos that match the design and proportions of the Metru torso. While the Hagah are canonically Metru builds, I have already demonstrated how much more egregious differences happened in official sets that are supposed to be the exact same character/form in story (Ex: Makuta 2003 and Ultimate Dume are canonically the exact same form, minus the wings). Despite that, Eljay was still adamant in barring it, as he said on the Nak & Jay to my build specifically, “what’s the point?” Eljay had no actual canon reason to bar custom builds, but rather it was his opinion that he didn’t see a point in using it over the standard torso.
One of my main arguments was that the use of the Inika shoulder armor as a chest plate is a nicer fit on my build than the standard torso, but people responded to this with pictures of it working on the standard torso as if that defeated my point. While that definitely did not, it was a weak point on my part, and I should’ve focused on the bigger picture. Just because I didn’t have any design ideas at the time that only work on a custom build and not the standard torso doesn’t mean none are possible, and I would’ve loved to give that opportunity to the community, to see what others could come up with because I know there are much more talented MOCCists than me. But unfortunately, that opportunity was blocked, and for no canon reason.
This, along with the persistency in not having another poll to continue the contests until after Lariska and TTV going with mixing art and MOC entries for the Hagah when the majority of the poll was for keeping it the same, really seems to me that the community is being held hostage. Either conform to how TTV interprets canon based on how they form the rules and accept whatever entries that win as canon, or disconnect yourself from canon altogether. I initially voted for the contests because I was hopeful, but that hope is long since gone. I know I am not the only one that see these as a net negative on the community. Sure, it’s gotten a lot of engagement, but the majority of that has been toxic. This behavior has to end, and if it can’t while the contests continue, then they need to end as well. And if the contests do continue, Eljay and Meso need to seriously reevaluate how they handle them.
I’ve never understood this argument; doesn’t the entire concept of canon “force something” upon people? I can’t just say that Tahu died on Voya Nui, because the canon “forces upon me” the fact that he fought in the Battle of Bara Magna. I’m also “forced” to accept that Pohatu Mata is brown, and that there are 42 breeds of Rahkshi.
If someone truly wants to follow the canon to a T, shouldn’t these contests be the best thing in the world?
That’s… the point of a canon contest, is it not?
This is simply untrue. Look beyond the handful of controversial topics, and you’ll see a tremendous amount of creative output that never would have happened otherwise, and even more positive support for that creative output.
(Plus, there’s a difference between “toxic” and “disagreement”)
And if the outcome of said canon contest ruins long standing headcanons of a line cancelled a decade ago, or potentially even previous canon, wouldn’t that point be detrimental to the community and/or canon?
When Eljay, Meso, Hawkeye, and/or other moderators have had to intervene many times and remind people to stay civil, it’s not just disagreement.
Whilst this might be true, I’d argue that the majority of the debating side and the vocal side of the debating has been on the more toxic side. Not to say there aren’t/weren’t any positive debates or anything just that the vocal part has been largely toxic.
This perception is definitely growing, and I’ll freely admit that I’m starting with a negative view due to my inherent dislike of the canon contests for reasons unrelated to debates. Nevertheless, I think (at least) the Hoseryx debacle went entirely over the line. Not all disagreements are vitriolic, but that doesn’t mean some are.
Wait a minute…
In all seriousness, thank you for articulating your viewpoint. I’m glad not everyone is as put off by the contests and debates as I am.
You’re right, but that’s a big if. Not that it’s impossible. And yeah, as mentioned above, I started with
because I don’t like the canon contests to start with. Not that I’m trying to start a blindly calumniating overflow of vitriol–I just wanted to air a dissenting view and point out that there really has been a fair bit of annoyance and disgruntling of the community. For all those (not specifically Winger) who might doubt that assertion, read the posts above in this topic relating to the delay in polls.
Yes. Definitely. How was this so concise and my original post so long if that’s the main point I wanted to make?
Yeah, so, I’m not sure about this. As I said previously, TTV is not the entire BIONICLE community. I joined it after hearing about the canon contests, and there may well be others who didn’t join and are also disappointed at getting new canon forced on them. There are probably also people who just aren’t vocal about it.
Not for Bionicle. Creators like myself and Gilahu expand canon with our own creative works because we want to fill niches we assumed would never be filled. But now new canon is being introduced which we neither expected nor wanted. If you make something to fill a niche, it invalidates what you do when that niche is removed (unless you can come up with a way to make the thing canon-compatible, which doesn’t always feel satisfying to have to resort to).
I’m not??? You said there was no canon reason to mandate Metru builds, then conceded that the Hagah are canonically Metru builds. That canonicity was the reason. What you said afterwards doesn’t really change that. Explicit retcons that’ve already happened are not reason to just go lax on rules. There’s no point to having a canon contest if we’re going to have to immediately negate the results.
We literally held a vote before all this. If there was really a majority or even plurality of detractors, they’d have come out of the woodworks by now.
It’s a canon contest. Like I said, if it doesn’t comply with canon then there’s not really a point.
I missed that vote. I’m guessing a lot of people did. And being a detractor coming out of the woodworks, I’m highly anticipating another poll of the same ilk.
You may disagree what defines a Metru build, and that’s valid, but you cannot claim that it is canonically defined by one specific piece. That is false.
That’s your opinion and interpretation on canon, but the fact that retcons like Makuta’s form have happened sets a precedence. It happened then, it can happen now. You’re free to have your opinion, but it’s a problem when you try to force it on people who disagree. Someone forcing their opinions of canon onto others is the problem with these contests.
I can. There is nothing saying that I can’t. There is no evidence that I can’t. Plenty of things in canon are defined by one piece. Masks. Other objects. Crucially-important plot points. The idea that a single piece cannot mean anything in a canon context is an argument from incredulity.
No, Greg literally said they’re Metru builds. That’s the entire reason we have the rule.
That’s an exception, not the rule.
I’m not doing that any more than you are right now by telling me we shouldn’t be consistent with what Bionicle did more often. Greg went out of his way to retcon specific things like set design. There isn’t a good reason to assume that should be the case all the time.
By that logic, all of canon already does this by forcing concrete ideas and facts into officiality.
…so you concede that I’m right and having to retcon a design right as it wins is counterintuitive?
And what that means has been debated for months, so don’t act like it’s settled just because TTV said so.
Anything that’s canon is the rule.
It is consistent with what Bionicle did, but whether it has to be consistent with what Bionicle did “more often” (whatever that may mean to different people) is simply opinion.
Canon has been pretty much locked for a decade. Fans have created many headcanons during that time to fill in the gaps that were missing. These contests undermine that. If you can’t see the difference, I don’t know what else to say.
I said I agree with you that “there’s no point to having a canon contest if we’re going to have to immediately negate the results.” That almost happened twice with Helryx and the quote where Greg said she’s dark blue (but fortunately thanks to the vague wording, it doesn’t necessarily contradict) and the Hagah quote that the other four are like Norik and have differently shaped masks. If that quote had been found only a few months later, it could’ve ruined the Hagah contest. That’s not the same as allowing custom builds for the Hagah because of a simple difference in interpreting canon.
This debate has cemented my belief that we need more frequent votes to continue/discontinue the contests. It’s just diplomatic.
That said, I do suspect there will still be at least a slight majority in favour of continuing the contests. But at least by getting to vote, ‘Team Cancel’ won’t feel imprisoned by the arbitrary rule that the next vote will only happen after Lariska (which might even get pushed back again, as it has before).
That being said, even if 60% of people say “yes, continue the contests”, you have to wonder whether it’s worth continuing them anyway when the community survived just fine without them for so long.
Maybe I’m wrong, but the community felt like a much tamer place before the contests came along. Keeping everyone complacent feels better than making some people more entertained and some people more frustrated.
