BIONICLE G1 Canon Contests Discussion & Questions

[Willess12]

@SirKeksalot

I can. There is nothing saying that I can’t. There is no evidence that I can’t.

Logical fallacy: lack of evidence against something does not prove it. There needs to be evidence that the Metru build is that one piece.

And hey, I’ll grant you that there is actually a really good piece of evidence for it: the fact that every Metru build set uses it. But is that evidence alone enough to say it’s the only way to make a Metru build? Consider this:

A) the Metru are from an era of clone sets. If the Metru came out in 2008, would they use that piece?
B) the Metru are sets, not mocs. If a fan designed the Toa Metru, would they use the same piece?

So I’ll say this: yes, a Metru build is easiest to make by using the gearbox, but it’s possible to make one without it. I’ve done it, Dag’s done it (two different ways). Lego wouldn’t have done it, because that would push the budget of the set past the canister build. But Lego also wouldn’t have put out something like this as a set. That’s the point of MOC contests. We’re not doing set design contests.

@SirKeksalot

@Dag

That’s your opinion and interpretation on canon

No, Greg literally said

I’m going to stop you right there.
This is not the argument. Never has been.
Greg has NEVER said “they all use the same torso”.

You continue to say “Greg said I’m right, therefore it’s canon.” That’s not the debate, the debate is whether your interpretation of his words is canon.

[Hazash]

“The Hagah canonically have Metru builds” != “The Hagah canonically have Metru torsos”

There. I cleared it up for you. Now let’s move on

That’s a ‘does not equal’ sign for you non-programmers out there

[MooCowsRock]

@Hazash

‘Team Cancel’

Wait a minute, it’s like Team Avatar but the prophesied one is… cancellation of contests… that doesn’t work…

@Hazash

won’t feel imprisoned by the arbitrary rule that the next vote will only happen after Lariska

I’ll admit here that I’m actually interested in seeing the Lariska contest, though that’s only because I want to see more Lariska MOCs, not because I want a canon Lariska. But I absolutely agree with you that the votes should be more frequent and having one before the Lariska contest would be prudent.

@Hazash

That being said, even if 60% of people say “yes, continue the contests”, you have to wonder whether it’s worth continuing them anyway when the community survived just fine without them for so long.

To this I would say–since the community survived, it can continue to survive, and these contests aren’t helping. It’s things like Quest for Mata Nui that really help by getting the community excited rather than half-excited and more divided than it was.

[SirKeksalot]

@Dag

And what that means has been debated for months, so don’t act like it’s settled just because TTV said so.

The voting period’s over soooooooooo…yeah, it’s kinda settled.

@Dag

Anything that’s canon is the rule.

Do you know what an exception is? Genuine question, I’m not trying to be inflammatory, because that response makes no sense if you know what it means.

@Dag

It is consistent with what Bionicle did, but whether it has to be consistent with what Bionicle did “more often” (whatever that may mean to different people) is simply opinion.

I mean, it’s common sense that what happens more often is the more likely/reasonable outcome. Like, that’s a fundamental principle of logic.

@Dag

Canon has been pretty much locked for a decade. Fans have created many headcanons during that time to fill in the gaps that were missing. These contests undermine that. If you can’t see the difference, I don’t know what else to say.

People form headcanons even as new stuff comes out. If canon cannot be added to trampling on headcanons, and if that’s reason enough not to add to canon, then no canon should ever be added onto ever in any capacity, even through ongoing sequels/episodes of a franchise.

@Dag

I said I agree with you that “there’s no point to having a canon contest if we’re going to have to immediately negate the results.”

And if that’s true, I’m right.

@Dag

That almost happened twice with Helryx and the quote where Greg said she’s dark blue

That wasn’t noticed until after the contest, and nothing was really done about it.

@Dag

and the Hagah quote that the other four are like Norik and have differently shaped masks. If that quote had been found only a few months later, it could’ve ruined the Hagah contest.

But…it wasn’t. That never happened, and if it had, referring back to the Helryx incident, nothing would really have come of it because Greg’s “sure” would be set in stone.

@Dag

That’s not the same as allowing custom builds for the Hagah because of a simple difference in interpreting canon.

They’re “Metru-styled builds.” There was only one type of build that could have been at the time Greg dropped that little nugget, so he really could only have been thinking of one thing. Ignoring his comment on Metru torsos would be akin to ignoring any of his other comments, all for a slightly-more-flush Inika pauldron for a chestpiece.

@Willess12

Logical fallacy: lack of evidence against something does not prove it. There needs to be evidence that the Metru build is that one piece.

I didn’t say it did. I’m saying you can’t prove a negative. That doesn’t really mean either of us is right or wrong, but it does mean that until you bring up concrete evidence that a single piece cannot decide anything about canon, you’re really just arguing from incredulity.

@Willess12

And hey, I’ll grant you that there is actually a really good piece of evidence for it: the fact that every Metru build set uses it. But is that evidence alone enough to say it’s the only way to make a Metru build?

Until there is evidence to the contrary, there is no reason to believe it’s not. There is evidence that all vertebrates share a common ancestor, and I will continue to believe they do until the fossil record turns up a good counterexample.

@Willess12

A) the Metru are from an era of clone sets. If the Metru came out in 2008, would they use that piece?
B) the Metru are sets, not mocs. If a fan designed the Toa Metru, would they use the same piece?

None of this matters because this is not what happened.

@Willess12

I’m going to stop you right there.
This is not the argument. Never has been.
Greg has NEVER said “they all use the same torso”.

You continue to say “Greg said I’m right, therefore it’s canon.” That’s not the debate, the debate is whether your interpretation of his words is canon.

You’re just getting into semantics at this point, and as I said, the odds are slim that Greg could have meant anything else.

[Tarkur]

@Dag

Ex: Makuta 2003 and Ultimate Dume are canonically the exact same form, minus the wings

Excpt this isn’t true as Makuta is depicted like ultimate dume in the comics which takes precedncy over the movies

[Winger]

guys guys guys, these contests should end, it’s been so negative.

I WONDER WHY, JOHNNY

[Willess12]

@SirKeksalot

None of this matters because this is not what happened.

I may not have stated that clearly, so let me connect it with this:

@Willess12

We’re not doing set design contests.

What I’m trying to say is, if Lego made a Metru set in 2004/2005, it had to use the Metru gearbox. But that doesn’t prove that a Metru Build has to use it, only that lego had to.

@SirKeksalot

The voting period’s over soooooooooo…yeah, it’s kinda settled.

This might be a bit pedantic, but only the rules are settled. What a Metru build is has still not settled, if this debate is anything to go by.

@SirKeksalot

the odds are slim that Greg could have meant anything else.

All right, I’m going to ask you this. This isn’t meant as a gotcha question, I’m just curious as to what you think:

If I showed Greg Dag’s custom Metru build, do you think he would say it is a Metru Build? Do you think he would say that in 2005 when he said they were Metru builds?

Yeah, of course he meant the design Lego used for canister set Metru Toa from 2004-2005. Those were the only Toa Metru we had. But I don’t think we can even say that Greg would look at a custom build and say “nah, that’s not a Metru build.”

[Senit]

ok disliking the idea a hagah contest isnt new

[Winger]

Like, what is it even about at this point? Legitimately trying to convince the other person that they’re wrong with phacts and logicx? Or is it an ego thing? I can’t tell.

These - discussions - have - been - had. Could we -please- just fricking give it a break?

[MooCowsRock]

@Winger

guys guys guys, these contests should end, it’s been so negative.

I WONDER WHY, JOHNNY

That’s not helpful at all. If you’re implying that the people wanting the contests to end are the reason they’ve been negative, that’s just not the case. Such people have been a decidedly quiet minority thus far, and plenty of inflammatory remarks from people who like the contests have contributed to the overall negativity.

@Winger

These - discussions - have - been - had. Could we -please- just fricking give it a break?

Yes–we could abandon the contests. That would result in a break of all discussions on the topic.

[SirKeksalot]

@Willess12

What I’m trying to say is, if Lego made a Metru set in 2004/2005, it had to use the Metru gearbox. But that doesn’t prove that a Metru Build has to use it, only that lego had to.

It’s what Lego did do, regardless of why.

@Willess12

This might be a bit pedantic, but only the rules are settled. What a Metru build is has still not settled, if this debate is anything to go by.

That no longer matters, though. The rules have done their work. There’s nothing that we can get by going back and forth about it anymore.

@Willess12

All right, I’m going to ask you this. This isn’t meant as a gotcha question, I’m just curious as to what you think:

If I showed Greg Dag’s custom Metru build, do you think he would say it is a Metru Build? Do you think he would say that in 2005 when he said they were Metru builds?

Yeah, of course he meant the design Lego used for canister set Metru Toa from 2004-2005. Those were the only Toa Metru we had. But I don’t think we can even say that Greg would look at a custom build and say “nah, that’s not a Metru build.”

Alright, this is hard to be certain about because it’s a hypothetical, but knowing Greg…I think he’d say “that’s not a Metru build.”

Look at his quotes on Nidhiki. He doesn’t think visually, but he does seem to have very clear, unshakeable ideas about what his characters should and shouldn’t be when he does make up certain details, and they’re also really oddly specific. That being the case, he’d probably stick to his incredibly-specific guns.

[Winger]

@MooCowsRock

That’s not helpful at all. If you’re implying that the people wanting the contests to end are the reason they’ve been negative, that’s just not the case. Such people have been a decidedly quiet minority thus far, and plenty of inflammatory remarks from people who like the contests have contributed to the overall negativity.

What I’m saying is, the negativity has nothing to do with the contests being inherently flawed. It’s the people that make things living hell. Just as easily as they’ve devolved into toxicity, these contests could be a net positive thing in the community if people would just not be so negative and egomaniacal.

Saying we have to abandon the contests to end the negativity is an exaggeration and everyone knows it. The only thing we need to do to end the arguing is to try, for one minute, to make something in a mile’s distance of an attempt at making the contests positive.

But I’m proving my own point. If you all wanna have your discussions again, go for it I guess. I’m out.

[MooCowsRock]

@Winger

The only thing we need to do to end the arguing is to try , for one minute , to make something in a mile’s distance of an attempt at making the contests positive.

I mean, all right. I’m glad these contests make some people happy. I’ve seen some cool builds in them, and the creativity definitely surprises me.

[Willess12]

@SirKeksalot

Alright, this is hard to be certain about because it’s a hypothetical, but knowing Greg…I think he’d say “that’s not a Metru build.”

If that is the case, then I… have to reluctantly agree that you are probably correct. A custom build would not match Greg’s view of canon, if you’re correct.

Yes, I’m still saying IF. I’ll grant, your view on his thought process is probably right. I just don’t want to say definitively what he would say.
Maybe I’m just being stubborn, I don’t know.

[Dag]

@SirKeksalot

They’re “Metru-styled builds.” There was only one type of build that could have been at the time Greg dropped that little nugget, so he really could only have been thinking of one thing. Ignoring his comment on Metru torsos would be akin to ignoring any of his other comments, all for a slightly-more-flush Inika pauldron for a chestpiece.

Again, that’s how you choose to intepret what Greg said. I’m choosing to intepret it differently. The difference between you and me is that I’m saying you can have your opinion and we can just agree to disagree. You’re saying that you’re right, that’s that, and that my opinion has no place in this canon contest. That attitude makes it impossible for us to have a genuine discussion.

@Tarkur

Excpt this isn’t true as Makuta is depicted like ultimate dume in the comics which takes precedncy over the movies

For other Stars, yes, there actually is an in-universe change in armor, like Gresh[3] [4] [5] and Tahu,[5] but the Skrall is just regular, only green instead of red,[6] [7] and there is no definitive explanation for Takanuva or Nektann that I could find. Even outside of the Stars there are examples, namely Gold Good Guy, who was canonized as Turaga Lhikan,[8][9] despite having the same Great Hau instead of a Noble. Or how Ultimate Dume is (probably? there’s conflicting answers[10][11]) the same exact form as 2003 Makuta, only with wings.

@Winger

guys guys guys, these contests should end, it’s been so negative.

I WONDER WHY, JOHNNY

And so you decide to mock people who say they should end, as if that somehow helps either side of the debate?

@Winger

Like, what is it even about at this point? Legitimately trying to convince the other person that they’re wrong with phacts and logicx? Or is it an ego thing? I can’t tell.

These - discussions - have - been - had. Could we -please- just fricking give it a break?

Speaking for myself, the only reason I brought up the metru debate again is to make the larger point that I and others don’t appreciate how TTV has been handling the contests, and so they should either stop completely, or be handled better. Until either happens, its a discussion that should continue to be had.

@Winger

What I’m saying is, the negativity has nothing to do with the contests being inherently flawed. It’s the people that make things living hell. Just as easily as they’ve devolved into toxicity, these contests could be a net positive thing in the community if people would just not be so negative and egomaniacal.

Saying we have to abandon the contests to end the negativity is an exaggeration and everyone knows it. The only thing we need to do to end the arguing is to try , for one minute , to make something in a mile’s distance of an attempt at making the contests positive.

But I’m proving my own point. If you all wanna have your discussions again, go for it I guess. I’m out.

Literally no one disagrees with you. Like I said, things need to remain civil. If that can happen without ending the contests, great. If not, they should end too.

[Spiderus_Prime]

Well you guys been talking a lot about everything about what is cannon, also the polls are coming now you just wait for it whens it’s get here.

[Tarkur]

No I gotta side with the people who claim these contest are ultimately bad. While a part of me want them to continue a part of me also know I won’t be content with the results unless 75% of all winning builds are G1 and technic parts.

Bionicles world and worldbuilding is one of the things I enjoy most about Bionicle and will always be what I enjoy about Bionicle. Which I can experience through the toys and canon models that exists. I know I’ve been very heated in several debates in here about different aspects of the contest and I think its a protective measure from my part as I’m not convinced that this is what is best for Bionicle. Even though I voted for the contest when they first asked for it I realized now I should have said no. I don’t like having the one thing I enjoy about Bionicle being threaten over and over again and that makes me overly protective. I said yes because I thought people had more of a consenus of what canon was boi were I wrong.

I personally think the Bionicle world is quite cohesive and works well but I know from these contest that not everyone agrees and that most people just want the best builds to win with no regard if it actually fit the place it needs to fill. However I also know that unless they implement a parts percentage rule I’m not gonna stop being protective of my enjoyment of Bionicle and I know that’s to the detriment of others and I hate that I need to be so instictive about this but I cannot so easily change why I enjoy something if its been the reason for that enjoyment for such a long time. I grew up with the toys and not the story which has a part in it as well.

What I’m trying to say is I want to apologize for my behavior, not my opinions but my overall behaviour I know I should try and calm down but its not easy when people constantly tries to invalidate your enjoyment of something or if something makes you feel your enjoyment is being threatend.

If we get another poll about whether or not we should continue these contest I’ll say no we shouldn’t without a shadow of a doubt because through this contest I’ve made more enemies than I’ve had for the 7 years I’ve been part of this community. If this should be something to strenghten the community that shouldn’t happen regardless of opinons. What I’m trying to saying is that the canon contest are way to controversial for their own good.

If we don’t get a poll about whether or not the contest should continue I’ll hope that TTV at least would consider implementing a parts percentage rules for all foreseable contest - Marendar(Because to be franc I think its the one you should be able to go most nuts with) . It would at least give TTV one headache less to deal with going forward. Also I know this is probably not a favorable ruling for everyone. I don’t mind custom builds that much to be honest the Hagah are really my only exception where I think builds should be retricted. However I do fell that the parts percentage rule would at least quell my concerns about the canon models not fullfilling a visual consitency or the desired cohesion of the world which I enjoy it for.

Finally here is a full definition of aforementiond hypothetical ruling.
“Your moc should consist of 75% G1 or technic parts”

Thank you all for reading my TEDtext
/Tarkur

[Winger]

@Dag

And so you decide to mock people who say they should end, as if that somehow helps either side of the debate?

Going back on what I said but I could not let that misunderstanding go.

I’m not making fun of the people who say the contests should end. I’m pointing out that “because they’ve been so negative” is a moot point, because the contests and the negativity have nothing to do with each other. It’s the people.

@Dag

Literally no one disagrees with you.

Maybe not in theory. But in practice … ?

[Willess12]

@Winger

Maybe not in theory. But in practice … ?

I’mma be pedantic again. Everyone agrees that we should be civil, not that we should stop arguing.

I agree we should be civil. I want to agree that we should stop arguing about Metru Torsos, but I just keep seeing points I want to respond to and I lack restraint…

[RiderBD]

Essentially, the contradictions that arise from explaining the differences between each children toy sets with impromptu answers and stories were accumulated.
That is the cause of many differences in opinion arising from this debate.

I think we need to loosen up a little bit.