I wasn’t talking about TTV, I was talking about how some fans reacted to that being canon, before TTV settled on the rules.
Did I say it wasn’t? More importantly, does that matter? All that does is that, if a poll were to happen right now on continuing the contests, I would vote “no”, despite having been very active throughout the contests so far.
No. I said this already, but it makes absolutely no sense to not only cave to the side that has been the more toxic throughout that debate, but also participate in that behavior. When Eljay and Meso laughed at my custom build as if it was nothing, there is nothing unbiased about their decision.
Then it’s a poor example of the contests rewriting canon since it was canon before the contests began.
Yes, since it assumes the motives of a good amount of people involved. It’d be equal to me assuming you’re only taking issue here because you have a personal vendetta against TTV and are out for blood.
Sure, but ‘detest’ isn’t the right word. It’s a matter of principle and passion - not disgust.
I can learn to live with the MOCs I’ve made of the Hagah, Varian and Marendar being canonically invalidated, but it’d give me comfort knowing I didn’t have to. And as I’ve seen more people present a similar opinion, I’ve been more willing to come out of my shell on matter.
The bigger issue I have with the contests, especially the Hagah contest, is that I think there’s too much risk involved in getting a canon design I and every other sensible member of this community can be satisfied with.
Consider that a tall order, but that’s why I disagree with canonising things. It upsets people who had their own headcanons, and it upsets people who don’t like the design that becomes canon.
If we could have contests that canonise completely new characters, I’d in all likelihood be in favour of them.
I also disagree with the sentiment that because most people were originally in favour of the contests that that automatically means they’re in favour of pretty much every visual-less character having a contest, or even that that’s in the spirit of a Lego theme. Is three contests not enough for now?
And though I have argued TTV are doing about as well as anyone could in managing these contests, that’s not to say I think they’re doing a good enough job. I think if some other group ran the contests, they’d be equally competent, if not worse, at it.
I know how difficult it is to keep a project as big as this afloat, and I think we’re going to really struggle to ever give this endeavour the proper managerial support it needs.
People seem to think that passion for one thing means hatred of another. As much as I find you infuriating, Ghid, I do respect you and people who agree with you.
I get why people want the contests to continue. I only disagree with them continuing as a matter of principle, not because of some burning fury.
I didn’t say the contests were, I said people were (at least trying) to use them to do so. Thankfully, TTV upheld the Pouks/Emulation quote (was honestly unsure for a while if they would, so credit where credit is due).
You’re free to think that. The point is I would still vote to end the contests, regardless, which was the point the whole time. You initially said (paraphrasing) that the increased activity in the contests means more people are enjoying them, and I’m living proof that activity =/= enjoyment. It doesn’t matter why I don’t enjoy it, just that I don’t.
I will in this instance argue that anti-contest people should also put thought into the stances of pro-contest people, for instance Ghid’s stance on creative expression.
Essentially we should be considerate of both camps’ arguments. Both have good points.
Though part of the reason I stand on the anti-contest side is because having no more contests essentially restores the ‘community status quo’. It was a pleasant place before the contests were a thing, so I don’t see returning to the status quo to be a loss - especially considering we’ve at least got to experience some of the contests.
I can’t think of a single instance where that occurred. TTV has been very clear that a canon restriction will not be overwritten no matter how compelling the argument - the immoral masks in the Hagah debacle, for example. Nearly everyone wanted them but they conflicted too heavily with established canon and the answer was a hard No.
And I still believe I’m right. You don’t, and that’s not changing, so we’re done.
Quite literally this. Canonization does nothing to headcanons because headcanons are, well, opinions that are in and of themselves incorrect and sometimes intentionally so, for people who want to see their preferred version of a character or series of events occur. It’s why MOCs are so frequent and so varied; canon contests occurring are only going to ruin the headcanons of those willing to let them be ruined.
On the flip side, think of all the things which have been canonized encouraging headcanons and creativity. Every version of Tahu, for example, has sparked “My Own Version” MOCs and self-MOCs pouring out of every community channel. The argument that headcanons will be ruined because of things being canonized I only see occurring with one person on the boards, while I see over 15 years of the exact opposite happening.
Doubt me? Look up Tahu MOC and see how many you have to search through before you find an image of set Tahu.
What it means is that we finally get official depictions of these characters. Headcanons have existed since before these contests, and they will continue to exist long after them. If someone truly cares about their headcanons to the point that they want to limit the official canon for everyone else, then they can keep those headcanons after these contests.
I still don’t see how there can be any overlap between “I must follow canon to the letter, even if I don’t like it” and “I want to restrict canon so it doesn’t contradict my own version”.
It was also a place with a disappointing lack of official visuals of important characters.
You’re misunderstanding Gilahu’s point. We literally don’t want to restrict canon. Not having a canon appearance for a character expands the horizons for what that character could look like, without infringing on anyone else’s conceptions.
I imagine that wasn’t a net detriment to the fanbase, though. Disappointment is a pretty lukewarm emotion to have.
I’m going to coin the phrase “Schrödinger’s Canon”: if there are a few canonical gaps, those gaps could be filled with pretty much anything you want and it can be as true to you as canon is. If you want a ‘true’ depiction of a character, you can make one or choose one that someone else has made. I’m delving into the metaphysical nature of truth here but hopefully you get my point.
You think I actually do enjoy the contests because I’m active in them? You think you know what I enjoy and don’t enjoy better than I do? If not, then again, activity =/= enjoyment, and you’re wrong.
“The increased activity in the contests means more people are enjoying them”. That’s what I think. Not that EVERYONE is enjoying them, but that more people are than previously due to the massive increase of attention it’s received.
Calm. I’m not saying what your opinion is, I’m saying it’s not an unfair assumption to believe more people are enjoying the contest if many more people are showing up to participate.
People enjoying the contests is an assumption, yes.
My original point, which I now quote,
Which Hazash cited as an assumption, is not an assumption. People have shown up more and more as the contests progress. TTV is not going to change their minds when interest in the contests is growing, and if people aren’t interested they wouldn’t be here. This is not an assumption. This is fact.
The topic’s jumped about a bit since then, so I understand the confusion, but disinterest = lack of participation.
The crux is: Those who do have canon-compliant headcanons lose with these contests, while anyone else, except collectors and the winner of a contest, don’t actually gain anything.
Right now, you can for example build whatever Lariska you want based on the meagre canon material, and everyone’s happy. Once there is a canon Lariska design, everyone who wants to be canon compliant but doesn’t like the winning Lariska either has to abandon canon, or will experience a certain level of frustration.
In effect meaning that the canon contests do not give us anything we couldn’t do more freely without them, and only saw frustration and make people abandon canon.
Ok I’m going to try summarise the “new canon destroys headcanons” argument because it is a complicated issue, but one that is by no means incorrect.
My theory is that people fundamentally don’t understand this because it’s not a strictly rational matter (and by rational I mean something which is equally true for everyone; not something that is nonsensical). It’s a matter of belief and value.
To avoid stepping into dangerous terrain, I will make up a fictional analogue to illustrate my point:
The “Takua and Kapura” Thought Experiment
Suppose Takua believes Mata Nui is a giant robot and Kapura believes he’s an incorporeal godly being. They both believe this without any shred of doubt. So long as there is no evidence to prove who is correct, both Takua and Kapura’s beliefs are as good as being simultaneously true. They have set up their worldview with the belief that they are correct.
Then, word gets out that Mata Nui is actually a giant robot. Kapura’s belief is proven wrong and his worldview is shattered. Takua’s belief and worldview, however, remains intact.
If word never got out that Mata Nui is a robot, Kapura would have been perfectly happy living out his unnecessarily long life knowing that his belief was as good as true. And Takua really didn’t gain much by the knowledge because he already believed unequivocally that he was correct.
To tie this back to the argument of headcanons: very passionate fans build these huge and elaborate meta-canons on top of the collectively agreed-upon canon; and though if you smushed those meta-canons together, they would contradict one another, these meta-canons are as equally true and valuable to each of their creators if you let them coexist in parallel.
So the reason why changing canon invalidates headcanons is because to the person that makes the headcanon, canon and headcanon are practically one-and-the-same. For different fans, making their headcanon incompatible with canon does something between two extremes: making them momentarily disheartened, and fundamentally upending their ‘Bionicle Weltsnschauung’.
This isn’t me arguing why the contests are bad. This is me trying to explain why the argument of new canon destroying headcanons is absolutely not a ridiculous idea.
I’m also not saying everybody who upholds this view is not going to be able to swiftly move on from their headcanons being invalidated. Like I said in my ‘metaphysical essay’, it’s a matter of degrees.
Eh, there’s a gazillion canon interpretations of the same characters, With Tahu Phantoka barely looking like Tahu Mistika. I don’t get the whole headcanon squashed thing, especially considering when you could just say that it’s a different interpretation or point of existence of the character.
I mean sure, I guess there’s canon reasons for why folks look different from point to point, but it still seems kinda pedantic to me. The point I’m making is who’s to say that’s what the canon version of the character always looked like?
Because Lariska represents a species, whereas a Toa can get new armour and still be called the same character. If someone makes a deer-headed Lariska and it becomes canon, any Lariska that doesn’t have a head that looks like a deer is no longer canon-compatible unless you invoke the unsatisfying logic of “oh well she got mutated”.
As for the Hagah, I wouldn’t like having to resort to saying “oh they got new armour” to reconcile the differences between my design and the winning one, because of my preconceptions of them keeping the same form. I could do it, but I wouldn’t feel good about it.