BIONICLE G1 Canon Contests Discussion & Questions

[Bukkey]

Please let me say.
One thing I would like to point out is that I find your words very disconcerting.

If you are not a fan of the contest, then you should not have participated in the Helryx contest in the first place.
If your expression is correct, you did indeed once try to “suppress” the Headcanons of the rest of us with your Headcanon helryx.

Of course, I and people like me don’t consider this contest to be “oppression” - because we only get the glory of the canon as a reward for winning, and it doesn’t infringe on people’s respective Headcanons at all.
In fact, I ready 2 Nidhiki MOC for “Contest” and one for “Headcanon”.
And this is a personal story, but when I posted my Krakura MOC on Twitter, a complete stranger criticized my choice of mask with dirty words.
Naturally, I lashed back at him mercilessly. I felt that my “headcanon” had been violated.
This is an example of “Headcanon infringement” in action, because we had never see the “Regular Shape of Suletu”.

I believe that most of us are just fighting for glory seriously, sincerely, and fairly, without any intention to deny the Headcanon of others.

But to be honest, you seems to me now that you are inexplicably feeling that you are complaining about the contest itself because your Headcanon did not become a canon.
If this is my misunderstanding or delusion, I apologize, but I suggest that you think again about the relationship between Canon and Headcanon.

I usually believe that people have different ideas, and at the same time, these ideas can be discussed and criticized to reach the best conclusion.
I don’t like to explain things to others in an aggressive manner, because I believe that differences in values are also necessary and enjoyable for the development of the BIONICLE community.
However, in my honest opinion, I was even angry with you.
I am one who intends to entry.
That makes me an “oppressor” to you.

I beg you, Mister.
Think again your own word.

[Toa-of-Onions]

I saw a pie analogy earlier that didn’t track for me. Here’s another one:

You have a favorite restaurant. They have a huge menu with a lot of delicious items to choose from, some of which you love and some you don’t. But they’ve never served pie. A couple times maybe the waiter mentioned something about pie, hinted that a pie was in the works, might have even suggested some of the ingredients that would go into the pie… but the restaurant gets shut down before they can ever add it to the menu.

Ten Years Later, some dedicated fans of the restaurant decide to hold a contest to send their favorite pie recipes to the head chef at that restaurant, and for some reason he actually responds and says “Sure, you can add a photo of your pie to our online menu as an honorary gesture, even though the restaurant is closed and I will never be able to bake it for you.”

Your favorite pie is chocolate, but a banana pie wins the contest. A photo of a nice looking banana pie gets added to your favorite restaurant’s online menu — again, 10 years after the restaurant has closed.

Is that oppression? Are you forced to eat only banana pie forever? Are you going to harass the guy who emailed the head chef and remind him daily how angry you are that there is a picture of a pie you don’t like on a menu no one can order from?

Or can you still buy a chocolate pie at another store, bake one yourself at home, share recipes for your incredible homemade chocolate pie with your friends, and write fanfiction about your chocolate pie going on a date with Hewkii?

[LightningBW]

This is what I’ve been arguing from day one just a little less blunt. thank you Kesalot. This entitlement and absolute refusal to ignore cannon on the side of the anti-contest-ers it’s so befuddling and annoying.

[RiderBD]

Yeah… as a person who came back to Bionicle only half a year ago
I see this contest as proof that Bionicle fandom is still alive.

I’m really enjoying this kind of activity.

It’s a pleasure for me to keep doing fan activities like this, but why can call it oppression?

Because it invades head canon? That’s already done by Lego. and greg too

Please don’t call it oppression.

This is another chance given to those who missed it more than a decade ago

I’m still making things for the contest to be held in the future.

As a child, I just yearned for foreign contests that were very far away.
I didn’t imagine that my creation had a new opportunity to be recognized by others.

just…I am happy to participate in these activities in themselves.

[LightningBW]

Okay so to elaborate. It’s perfectly fine to not like the contests. It’s annoying to see headcannons squashed I get that. However time and time again I’ve seen the anti-contest-ers consistently argue why they are objectively right for wanting the contests to end and why we’re objectively wrong for wanting them to continue and ignore any argument to the contrary which isn’t cool.

Let’s get this clear no one is more right or wrong for wanting the contests to end or continue. If you like the contests and want them to continue great! If you don’t like them and want them to end also great! it’s as simple as that.

[Gilahu]

@vootcaboot

If involving yourself in canon this deep makes you this miserable, why bother?

Because it hasn’t made me miserable before the contests. Also I’m involved in projects that are set to be canon-compliant.

And I enjoy taking a world and building on top of it. This involves taking the rules given and utilizing them to your own end. In that regard, less can end up being more as it grants you greater freedom to interweave individual threads of lore and visuals.

By sticking close to a given ruleset, you furthermore make it easily recognizable to others who also follow the canon.

Lastly, though this is probably something not as widely shared, I perceive rules as rules. If I do not like the rules, and the rules offer no loopholes to change what I dislike, then why should I care for the world these rules apply to and do stuff with it?

---

@Bukkey

If you are not a fan of the contest, then you should not have participated in the Helryx contest in the first place.
If your expression is correct, you did indeed once try to “suppress” the Headcanons of the rest of us with your Headcanon helryx.

You misunderstand.

Yes, my Helryx entry would have suppressed other headcanons had it won.

But why did I enter it?

With the contests happening, I have to choose between two options if I want to stick to canon:
a) Criticizing them, not offering an alternative, and getting my canon-compliant headcanon devalidated
b) Criticizing them, offering an alternative that would not devalidate my headcanon (damage reduction), and maybe not getting my canon-compliant headcanon devalidated.

So the difference is that I’ll either definitely lose or maybe lose. Canon compliant headcanons will be destroyed anyways. But I do have the option to at least try to save my own canon-compliant headcanon. Yes, this is acting solely in my own interest, but it is what the contests rationally force me to do if they happen.

@Bukkey

I believe that most of us are just fighting for glory seriously, sincerely, and fairly, without any intention to deny the Headcanon of others.

And I can see that being true. Just the way the contests work does not permit not affecting canon compliant headcanons.

@Bukkey

I believe that most of us are just fighting for glory seriously, sincerely, and fairly, without any intention to deny the Headcanon of others.

@Bukkey

But to be honest, you seems to me now that you are inexplicably feeling that you are complaining about the contest itself because your Headcanon did not become a canon.

I can assure you I was against the contests since the initial setup of them

@Bukkey

I am one who intends to entry.
That makes me an “oppressor” to you.

No it doesn’t. The oppressor is TTV by not offering permanent legal means (polls) for the contra-contest faction to get themselves heard.

I will not criticize anyone for entering the contests. That’s entirely fair.

I do admit to a certain exasperation regarding voting behavior, however. Of course, everyone is free to vote according to their own opinions, and generally I do not strongly advocate for specific entries during voting. However, the contests as a whole are too big to keep my thoughts to myself. If I did, nobody would even know that I cared at all. Without addressing perceived problems, these problems cannot be solved.

---

@LightningBW

Let’s get this clear no one is more right or wrong for wanting the contests to end or continue. If you like the contests and want them to continue great! If you don’t like them and want them to end also great! it’s as simple as that.

Alright, fair, but consider two things:
a) without discussion, there’s no understanding either perspective. Though, yes, we’ve probably been over everything multiple times now. Still, key to understanding is repetition.
b) More importantly, there exists no way to end them. Which is where I get the oppressiveness from. It’s easy to say “everything’s fine” when things go your way, but it doesn’t help the other group that has no opportunity to get their voice officially heard.

---

And lastly, to everyone:

Please let me say sincerely that I bear no ill will to anyone because of their opinions. This is a neutral argument for me which I try to lead with neutral arguments and counterarguments as far as it is possible (seeing how of course some are rooted in my very personal opinions). If you find my arguing overly direct/aggressive, be assured that this is just because I’m very blunt in such matters and do not intend to hurt or belittle anyone.

I am trying to approach the core problem - there is no way to end the contests - with what I perceive as a clear, entirely fair request:

There should be continuation polls held after every contest.

[Bukkey]

First of all, I would like to thank you for writing me back properly.
I have seen many people both on the web and in the real world who completely ignore a person’s comments just because they don’t agree, so I recognized that you are a sincere person in that regard.

I have read the entire content.
I’m a very positive person about contests, so I have to admit that I don’t agree with you on many points, but I think I understand what you are trying to say.
I also apologize about your reasons for participating in the Helryx contest. If your word are true, I had a misunderstand.
I initially believed that Pasta-Helryx was “an entry by people who wanted to revitalize the BIONICLE community again, even at the expense of her cool impressions”, but after doing some research, I found out that she “intentionally and terroristically sabotaged the contest” (regardless of the reasons why did. And I know there are pure people who just love it).
But I remember being very disappointed when I realized that true will.
(I’ve came TTV after Helryx contest has close)

As someone who has spent more than half of my life on BIONICLE, I can’t deny the possibility that I was still reeling from the shock of that moment and saw a non-existent malice in your statement.
It makes blur my eyes. Please forgive my mistake.

In any case, some of system may have been flawed, but I’m still a pro-contest person, so while I understand, I can’t agree with all of your opinions.
However, I felt that you have said many words out of your own sincerity, just as I did.

It’s a very difficult issue, so that’s all I can say.
However, I would like to conclude by saying that I am a person who wants the contest to continue and who has not given up on the new future of BIONICLE.

Thank you!

[Dag]

@vootcaboot

They are a website holding polls to determine whether or not someone’s figure and drawing goes up on a fan wiki for a dead toyline.

This is exactly the problem that I and others have with the community’s attitude towards these contests. What people really seem to want is just to replace the “No Image” icons on BS01 with actual character representations. Making it canon is just a consequence of that.

@vootcaboot

TTV and Biosector01 only have power over canon right now because we as a community have decided they ought to

Absolutely not. Greg is and always has been the only person that can determine what is canon and what isn’t. BS01 is simply an archival website, and TTV is just the forums that Greg is on. They themselves, or the community, cannot dictate canon.

@vootcaboot

If involving yourself in canon this deep makes you this miserable, why bother?

@Bukkey

If you are not a fan of the contest, then you should not have participated in the Helryx contest in the first place.

@LightningBW

This entitlement and absolute refusal to ignore cannon on the side of the anti-contest-ers it’s so befuddling and annoying.

I think now is a good time to bring up the results of a poll I’ve conducted on several Bionicle Discord severs. I sent this exact message to each:

Concerning the TTV canon contests, Eljay has said “we have not seen a statistical majority or even large group of people calling for these contests to end.” Myself and others have argued that this is because Eljay is only concerned with activity on the boards, which are biased towards the contests. To see if there is evidence of this, I will be posting this message across several Bionicle discord servers and asking people to vote.
If you are for the contests and/or have been enjoying them, react with a thumbs up (). If you are against the contests or at least how TTV has been managing them, react with a thumbs down (). If you do not care either way or haven’t heard of them before, react with a neutral face (). If you see this message in multiple servers, please vote only once.
The reason for doing it this way rather than a formal straw poll is so that, while it might not reach people as easily, it is contained within these discord servers and not skewed by outside users, and it will be a sure way of checking for double voting.
The purpose of this is not to uncover some hidden majority to turn the tides against the contests, but to show statistical evidence, or lack of, that the majority opinion on the TTV boards is not applicable across the rest of the Bionicle community.

Here are the raw results:

RSG

- 4
- 8
- 3

BS01

- 7
- 5
- 0

Mask of Destiny

- 4
- 7
- 1

The Great Archives

- 1
- 10
- 1

Kingsidorak Server

- 1
- 1
- 4

The Mask Makers

- 3
- 9
- 2

Bionicle 3D Modelling

- 4
- 14
- 4

A few people have clarified to me that they are for the idea of canon contests in general, but have not liked how TTV has been running them, and so still voted against per my wording. Also, some people voted more than once, so to eliminate bias, I will remove the multiple votes in the overall count.

- 20
- 43
- 13

I know there will be several responses to these results.

“These are clearly biased.”

Of course they are. Just as the TTV boards are biased towards the contests. It’s been Eljay and others who don’t seem to look or care about what the community outside of the boards thinks of them and they just assume it’s the same all around.

“The sample size is too small.”

This is a fair criticism, and one that definitely could be improved on. My reach was limited to the amount of Discord servers that I personally am in, and there are some that I am not. Even the servers I did post this in, not every active member voted, so these cannot be taken as the definitive majority opinion of these servers.

Does this mean this was worthless and not helpful? Not at all. It just means that the results suggest a majority against the contests, but further polling is required. This is exactly why I have been arguing that TTV should do another continuation poll after the Hagah, not Lariska.

Another thing that immediately stuck out to me was that The Great Archives had the highest percentage against the contests. This server is ran by Planetperson (creator of the Farshtey Feed and Greg Archive) and has several members who not only have done incredible work on the canon and archiving it on BS01 and TGA, but also have actively participated in and entered these contests. Almost all of them voted against the contests.

This what I’ve been saying for a while now. Activity and participation =/= enjoyment and support, but again, that’s the only measure TTV uses to continue them. Those of us against the contests would rather seem them end, but until they do, we actively participate to help make sure they run smoothly, not because we want them to continue. Sure, the members in the TGA server are only a fraction of the community, but when they are people who enjoy the canon and lore of Bionicle and know it better than most, and they are all pretty much unanimously against the contests, that should be a red flag.

The entire argument that “if you don’t like these contests so much, why care about canon” is completely hypocritical. Those of you who are for the contests are eager to suggest ignoring canon to us if we don’t like the contests, so why advocate for a canon contests in the first place?

Again, you don’t care about canon. You just want a picture on BS01.

[KDNX]

I care about canon, and I don’t see how “cares about canon” and “likes the contests” should be mutually exclusive positions

[Dag]

I was responding to the people who have been suggesting to just ignore canon if we don’t like the results, not to all the people for the contests in general.

It’s very obvious that some are only advocating for the contests in order to fill pages on BS01.

[KDNX]

@Dag

It’s very obvious that some are only advocating for the contests in order to fill pages on BS01.

I suppose. I just don’t see why the stakes are so high if we haven’t really contradicted anything from canon yet. If the argument isn’t “what if we contradict canon”, but it’s “what if the winner doesn’t match my headcanon that I consider to be canon-compliant”, well, get in line behind everyone else who voted for a model that lost.

[TheJerminator]

@Dag

Again, you don’t care about canon. You just want a picture on BS01.

Can’t those be the same thing?

[Dag]

@TheJerminator

Can’t those be the same thing?

They are the same thing, but there’s a difference in simply not wanting a “No Image” icon on a fan wiki and actually wanting something canonized. It depends on what you emphasize.

[Takutanuva]

Pretty sure the order was given to snip this talking point

[Hazash]

@Dag

I think now is a good time to bring up the results of a poll I’ve conducted on several Bionicle Discord severs. I sent this exact message to each:

I’d heard you were making the rounds in other communities and I was very curious to see what you’d find. The results are actually more alarming than I’d imagined.

@Dag

Again, you don’t care about canon. You just want a picture on BS01.

I feel like your point would have been stronger if you didn’t add this. There are a lot of anti-contest people making good points, but who fall into the trap of downplaying the other side’s passion. Pro-contest people are guilty of that too, mind you.

I think there are two key misunderstandings between the two sides: #1 is about what ‘caring about canon’ means. Does it mean caring about Bionicle, or caring about adherence to canon? Because we all care about Bionicle (the theme), probably not so much more than each other. But not everyone cares about canon adherence. Not everyone makes MOCs because they want to flesh out canon - some (probably most) just do it because it’s fun, without regard for whether it’s canon-compliant.

Misunderstanding #2 is when people say ‘you can ignore canon’, what I think some are actually saying (or at least ought to be saying) is ‘you can work around canon’. If your Artakha MOC doesn’t win, you can always say it’s a different version of the character from a different time period, for instance. People are within their right to dislike having to resort to doing that, but workarounds are at least possible.

[Stuubh]

@Dag

A few people have clarified to me that they are for the idea of canon contests in general, but have not liked how TTV has been running them, and so still voted against per my wording.

This here makes me question your results. The idea of asking the community outside of TTV their opinions on the contests is an interesting one. But if the way you conducted this vote asks more if people are for TTV’s canon contests or canon contests in general with little clarification between the two concerns me. These are two different questions. I think the question you should be focusing on is whether the community is in support of canon contests whether TTV has any involvement or not.

@Dag

It’s very obvious that some are only advocating for the contests in order to fill pages on BS01.

Let’s be real here, at this point that’s all canon really is. Those of us who support these contests are passionate about canon and want the results to accurately reflect canon. We want an “official” image to associate these characters with, and at this point in Bionicle’s life, that boils down to an image on BS01.

[TheJerminator]

@Dag

It depends on what you emphasize.

If you consider “wanting an official depiction” and “wanting an image on BS01” to be separate motivations, then I guess I want the former. I just don’t see how you could have one without the other.

[KDNX]

Takutanuva is correct that we need to shut the heck up about this, but I want to ask for clarification from the canon-adherent, anti-contest camp, because to me, the position there seems to be “the contests need to end because we don’t like the results.” Am I correct in this? Dag, you mentioned entering the Hagah contest for “damage control” purposes, essentially, but what makes your Hagah MOCs more “canon-compliant” than any others that were entered in the contest? To me, it just sounds like the canon-adherents are upset that their headcanons aren’t being made canon, which we all are gonna be upset about if we don’t like the winning models. Just because you place extra stock in the canon doesn’t mean that your opinion on the contest is more valuable than someone else’s.

Of course, I’m likely wrong, but that’s what I’m getting out of this. Please, feel free to explain.

EDIT: Also, I would like to point out that I am in the camp that the contests have been mishandled so far, especially the Hagah contest. I can think of maybe 3 ways to conduct the contest that would have been much better than what we did get, and at least one involves telling MOCists to suck it up.

[Dag]

@Hazash

I think there are two key misunderstandings between the two sides: #1 is about what ‘caring about canon’ means. Does it mean caring about Bionicle, or caring about adherence to canon? Because we all care about Bionicle (the theme), probably not so much more than each other. But not everyone cares about canon adherence.

I meant canon adherence in my post.

@Stuubh

But if the way you conducted this vote asks more if people are for TTV’s canon contests or canon contests in general with little clarification between the two concerns me. These are two different questions.

I completely agree they are two different things, but I made it clear from the very beginning that these are about the TTV contests.

@Dag

Concerning the TTV canon contests,

@Stuubh

I think the question you should be focusing on is whether the community is in support of canon contests whether TTV has any involvement or not.

Since the only canon contests occuring right now and for the foreseeable future are being conducted by TTV, I think the question I asked is the more pressing of the two.

@TheJerminator

If you consider “wanting an official depiction” and “wanting an image on BS01” to be separate motivations, then I guess I want the former. I just don’t see how you could have one without the other.

Let me try to be clearer. I see a difference in someone simply wanting artwork of a character so that they don’t have to see an ugly “No Image” icon every time they visit that character’s BS01 page, as opposed to actually wanting to create a canon portrayal of that character to enhance the story (and some have argued that, especially in the case of Artakha, leaving their appearance to mystery was part of their character).

@KDNX

Dag, you mentioned entering the Hagah contest for “damage control” purposes, essentially, but what makes your Hagah MOCs more “canon-compliant” than any others that were entered in the contest?

Absolutely nothing. I only entered Kualus, and I did so close to the deadline despite having it complete for months because I was deciding whether to enter at all or not. I absolutely see no point in having a Hagah contest at all. If the community really needed to know what they look like, we would’ve been as successful by just doing a mask and spearhead poll.

@KDNX

To me, it just sounds like the canon-adherents are upset that their headcanons aren’t being made canon, which we all are gonna be upset about if we don’t like the winning models.

I have no preconceived headcanons on 99% of the characters on the list, and made all of my entries so far for the purposes of the contests. But once a winning model is canon, its confines people’s headcanons of those characters. I absolutely love Perp’s Artakha and I think it was the best entry, but I wish it was never made canon.

[Hazash]

@Stuubh

Let’s be real here, at this point that’s all canon really is.

This feels needlessly reductive. If these contests literally are just about getting a picture on a wiki, it doesn’t explain the enthusiasm, arguments, discussion and engagement that’s been going on. It’s a cultural artifact, for all intents and purposes, not a bunch of pixels on a screen. We may just be arguing about technicalities here, but that is what Dag is arguing.

@KDNX

but I want to ask for clarification from the canon-adherent, anti-contest camp, because to me, the position there seems to be “the contests need to end because we don’t like the results.” Am I correct in this?

The anti-contest camp is only a camp insofar as it contains people who prefer not to have contests. The reasoning is different for different people, and I’d personally disagree with anyone who says “the contests need to end because we don’t like the results” unless that sentiment is shared by enough people. Hard to determine that accurately, which is why I was on the side of wanting more openness and transparency with regards to how the contests do/don’t proceed (and Dag’s polls now add more weight to that sentiment).

@KDNX

Dag, you mentioned entering the Hagah contest for “damage control” purposes

I think that’s more Gilahu’s go-to phrase. I don’t think his argument is “Your MOC isn’t canon-compliant but mine is, or mine is more-so”, rather that pinning down any design is more of a loss than a gain.
Edit: I forgot to elaborate further. Essentially I think Gilahu has a vision of each character, and would rather have something that more closely approximates his vision (either by entering his creations or voting for similar ones).

At this point, I’m just trying to help both sides understand each other.