BIONICLE G1 Canon Contests Discussion & Questions

[Toa_Heatwave]

@Eljay

What he did is not against our rules.

I respect that it is not against the rules for this contest, but if I may, would it be too much of a hassle to consider whether it might be made against the rules for other contests?

Obviously, I have little experience in running these kinds of things, but the concept of soliciting votes from uninterested (or only vaguely interested) third parties, with the expressly stated intent of brigading a vote, seems highly unethical. I have no issue whatsoever with a creator spreading word about a contest to their followers, but the idea of actually promising a reward to them if they help rig a vote in favor of someone’s entry (no matter how controversial it is or isn’t) deeply unsettles me, more so than any issue we’ve encountered thus far in this process…

[Eljay]

@Toa_Heatwave

I respect that it is not against the rules for this contest, but if I may, would it be too much of a hassle to consider whether it might be made against the rules for other contests?

To quote Meso from earlier:

@Mesonak

What we did not remove, however, were new accounts created for the duration of the polls. We’re not naive; we know the contest was advertised on various forms of social media, various communities, 4chan, etc. Many people feel this was improper, as it was essentially brigading the vote. However, we at TTV don’t feel that is the case; it would be no different than if we made a video advertising the contest and got new users to sign up who were not on our message boards prior. Unlike some other BIONICLE fan community websites, we do not, and will never, have rules against vote brigading or entry campaigning so long as the account is legitimate and has not been made through fraudulent means. We will never ban someone for voting for or against a particular entry, no matter whether we agree with the vote or not.

[Kirisuto]

I think it still matches the various rules of the contest , as it seems to be politely asking others to vote on their opinion. They are real people and not automated.

[Payinku]

@Toa_Heatwave

ut if I may, would it be too much of a hassle to consider whether it might be made against the rules for other contests?

Asking people to vote in a contest? Really?
How do you ban that? You’re all being so elitist about this contest, the community is much bigger than these boards!

[Eljay]

Please relax. This is a conversation that we can have without needing to be upset at other people for their opinions, no matter to the degree of which anyone disagrees with them.

[Winger]

Without trying to sound like a simp, tysm for the way you guys are handling this contest

[Toa_Heatwave]

I understand your’s and Meso’s position, and agree with it, but with respect to it, nowhere in that statement do you postulate a scenario where someone is advertising the contest with the intent of brigading. What Meso describes there is something I have no issue with, because it does not encourage votes for a specific entry (which would be highly improper of you guys, of course, as moderators).

This instance of advertisement, however, does do that. It explicitly instructs people to make accounts and vote for an entry with the promise of an external reward. It does not ask people to merely consider supporting said entry–it directly admits that it is a campaign to push that entry into first place, and I would find it wrong even if it were for any of the other entries.

@Kirisuto and @Payinku…I am not expressing any qualms about asking people to vote in the contest. Do either of you really think it’s okay for a person to ask people to vote for a specific entry by promising them a reward?

I’m trying my best to convey my honest feelings. If that comes off as “elitist,” so be it–the mods will only change rules if they deem it necessary, and I’m not trying to push. I apologize if it sounds like I’m being stuck-up…all I want is for every entry to have a fair shake, and I don’t see how essentially bribing a group of people into voting for an entry can be viewed as fair.

[Payinku]

@Toa_Heatwave

Do either of you really think it’s okay for a person to ask people to vote for a specific entry by promising them a reward?

yes.
That’s how campaigning in democratic voting works

[Winger]

tbh I didn’t really expect these contests to be this divisive.

[Toa_Heatwave]

@Payinku

That’s how campaigning in democratic voting works

And, in case you haven’t noticed, it’s a highly controversial aspect of democracy that many people disagree with. I reserve the right to disagree with it here, especially when the votes being solicited seem to be people who otherwise have no investment in these contests, and whose votes are–seemingly, though I could be wrong–being asked for merely to facilitate controversy.

[Godzilla]

How long will it take people to vote?
Keep in mind, this poll was made for the Bionicle community. Making it so they have to spend an hour or two with an account just to vote seems absurd, considering that many people in the Bionicle community might simply want to vote and be done with it. This may be a TTV poll, but it affects the entire community.
I understand getting rid of duplicate accounts, but as it stands, if someone makes an account legitimately, I’d say that should be good enough. They shouldn’t be beholden to the site, considering that the poll affects something beyond the site entirely.

@Toa_Heatwave To be fair, that happens in reality all the time. Presidential campaigns promise voters rewards in terms of public funding, changes to laws, etc, and even then, part of campaigns is oftentimes monetary donations expected to be paid back, or favors repayed with favors. It may seem rather against the spirit of the contest (and personally I am against it), but so is voting for whatever beats something rather than voting for what you want, or arguing for the contestant or even entire poll to be taken down and changed.

[Toa_Heatwave]

@Godzilla

so is voting for whatever beats something rather than voting for what you want, or arguing for the contestant or even entire poll to be taken down and changed.

Both of which I am also against.

I understand this likely can’t change, and accept that it probably won’t. I just wanted to make my feelings known.

[Eljay]

In order to access the sub-forum to vote, you’ll need to be Trust Level 1 (Villager). And in order to get there, this is what you will need to do:

@PandemicPanda

To Be Promoted to Trust Level 1 (Villager) You Must:

• Enter at least 10 topics
• Read at least 50 posts
• Spend a total of 35 minutes reading posts

We feel 35 minutes is reasonable in that it allows any new member to look around the Boards and get a better understanding for them. It’s also not prohibitively long. If someone is interested in participating, it will take a little longer to do, but it’s do-able.

We’re open to hearing perspectives for different times, but this is what we settled on for the time being.

[Winger]

Purely for curiosities sake, why 35 over 30?

[Eljay]

No specific reason. I’m willing to lower it to an even 30.

[Altron]

Im rather neutral on this whole debacle besides observing who will prevail, but I haven’t seen enough interesting topics myself on these boards in many years after I first joined in 2014. Would it be fair if these prequisites for voting are made well available and informed - perhaps in an automated private message - for any new users who are solely interested in contributing to their favorite toyline rather than the community surrounding it?

[Godzilla]

Yeah, I understand. Sadly, nothing we can do about it. But I still do not feel that this should elicit limits on voting, as these limits, in my eyes, transcend the issue entirely, and furthermore were not in place in the beginning of the contest, let alone the beginning of this specific phase.

@Eljay That seems rather extreme. Even discourse’s own Trust Level 1 has it reached by entering 5 topics, reading 30 posts, and spending 10 minutes on the site. Even then, I must disagree as to those changes.

Duplicate account voting is obviously a problem, and should be discouraged, but there is a large amount of people in the Bionicle community. Many of those people, I am certain, do not really care for TTV, or even dislike it. Yet they are still part of the community, even if they just are apathetic to the site.

I could understand such changes put in place for a vote that affected TTV. After all, outsiders shouldn’t meddle with TTV if they do not have a stake in it. But this vote is to establish actual canon for the entire community. For many people, they just want to make an account and vote, and be done with it. In my eyes, this seems wrong, as it limits voters into waiting 35 minutes and jumping through hoops in order to vote. These limits also were not in place at the start of the contest or this phase of the contest. That’s rather unfair to those who already have lost their positions.

The contest should just go on as planned, without changes. This all seems rather extreme, and although I myself support the reform of the voting system, I do not support changes made in the middle of a contest simply due to the controversy of a contestant.

Edit: I’d also like to add that I understand this is a difficult time, and you and the other moderators have enough on your metaphorical plate already. I am of course appreciative as to your efforts. I simply must state my view on this subject.

[Eljay]

@Altron

Would it be fair if these prequisites for voting are made well available and informed - perhaps in an automated private message - for any new users who are solely interested in contributing to their favorite toyline rather than the community surrounding it?

These perquisites are publicly available and the Trust Levels topic has been around since around the Boards were started. That being said, we do have a bot that sends a message to new users upon account creation that links to helpful topics to get them accustomed to the boards. What I can do is check to make sure the proper links are sent out, because one of them appears to be to the Discourse general information on Trust Levels.

@Godzilla

I could understand such changes put in place for a vote that affected TTV. After all, outsiders shouldn’t meddle with TTV if they do not have a stake in it. But this vote is to establish actual canon for the entire community. For many people, they just want to make an account and vote, and be done with it. In my eyes, this seems wrong, as it limits voters into waiting 35 minutes and jumping through hoops in order to vote. These limits also were not in place at the start of the contest or this phase of the contest. That’s rather unfair to those who already have lost their positions.

We’re willing to move it down to 30 minutes, but your largest issue seems to be waiting. This is not uncommon with websites that hosts contests such as this, as it has been in the past with prior canon contests.

This is the compromise. Anyone can vote for any reason they want, but they’re going to need to put some effort in before they can do it. This isn’t unordinary and we’re not going to remove it as a stipulation. But we are open to altering it.

[Godzilla]

I am mainly against it because it was not present before. In my eyes, changing contest criteria and regulations mid contest is not very fair to those who came before, nor to prospective voters.

However, if it stays, then I feel that waiting should be all that is needed. Reading at least 50 posts is somewhat reasonable, I suppose, as someone could simply read the poll thread, which would also let them get a bearing as to what’s going on. But entering 10 topics seems rather far fetched, unless I am interpreting it wrong. Why include that as well? A person should have to familiarize themselves with rules, sure, and the post reading limit makes sense as it lets them understand what exactly is going on in the specific poll replies, but why should a prospective voter have to scour the site for 10 different topics? If a limit is being enforced, than so be it, but this is the main part I would like changed.

[Eljay]

Alright, hopefully just got two things changed.

• Time has been brought down to 30 minutes.
• The bot that messages you upon making an account should link you to the staff list, Trust Levels topic, and the badges.

We will not be making any further changes at this time.