BIONICLE G1 Canon Contests Discussion & Questions

[Takutanuva]

Hmm I’m not really sure I follow the logic behind the further baselines argument.

I don’t see how singular Toa with tertiary colors in addition to their standard colors would retroactively change what we already know. We already have Greg quotes confirming the basic color schemes and the fact that they can have additional color of armor. I don’t think them having a tertiary color would make it retroactively conflated into the standard color scheme of the respected elements.

In my mind though if I am interpreting Greg correctly then that’d mean that only the outermost top ‘armor’ could be the nonstandard color, as to indicate that is the wearable armor

[JMSOG]

@Eljay

The argument doesn’t have any more or less weight to suggest additional colors than the one about Chiara does.

I still think that, if an argument exists for any of the three, it’d exist the strongest for orde, but this is a good point. Occam’s razor, psionics matoran had their colors copied from orde. Makes sense. Also:

@Eljay

Tahu is based in some respects on Ackar

I’m sorry, what? This isn’t relevent to the contests, but what’s the source on that? That’s an unbelievably cool piece of canon I can’t believe I’ve never heard until now if that’s a thing.

@TheJerminator

How? Weapons are part of a character’s appearance, are they not? And if they aren’t, then why have they been included in all contests so far?

Oh, I agree. I think they should have their weapons depicted, and it’s definitely part of their appearance. But, to be fair, it’s a bit different this time.

As an example, Chiara being depicted with a spear would be dramatically different than Bomonga with a spear: for Bomonga, we’re just visually depicting a spear that we already knew was there. For Chiara, we are establishing that she carries a spear. Categorically different.

[TheJerminator]

@JMSOG

but what’s the source on that?

Official Greg Dialogue | Page 244

@JMSOG

for Bomonga, we’re just visually depicting a spear that we already knew was there. For Chiara, we are establishing that she carries a spear. Categorically different.

I agree that there is a difference between the two, I just don’t think it’s enough to need special rules for those Toa’s weapons.

[RiderBD]

Speaking of colors, I’d like to discuss alternative colors.
As you know, we really have a limited number of gold.
Is it possible to replace it with another similar color?
For example, if we can change gold to keetonrange

[Eljay]

@Takutanuva

I don’t see how singular Toa with tertiary colors in addition to their standard colors would retroactively change what we already know.

The only things we have to base elemental color schemes on are canon sources (media, Greg, etc) and visuals, assuming nothing is contradicted or doubt is sown by extraneous circumstances. Our sources for Lightning is Greg and the visual media of Nikila.

Adding a new color/s to Chiara would be adding a new color to visual media, since what isn’t being canonized is whether or not Chiara is an exception. That’s additional canon that is outside the scope of the contest in question that would need Greg to comment on it. At best, it would bring into question whether Chiara or Nikila is the exception.

@TheJerminator

I just don’t think it’s enough to need special rules for those Toa’s weapons.

Ultimately, these are similar arguments which are worth hashing out. Personally speaking, I’m totally fine with canonizing what tools the unknown Toa have. But not everyone would be. So it’s worth determining.

@RiderBD

Speaking of colors, I’d like to discuss alternative colors.
As you know, we really have a limited number of gold.
Is it possible to replace it with another similar color?
For example, if we can change gold to keetonrange

Since Keetorange is used in place of gold for a canonically gold Mata Nui, that’d be fine. It would just need to be understandably gold in the canon artwork.

[Tarkur]

I’m not gonna drag this out further too much as Eljay have spoken but here is the logistics of what I proposed:

The proposal was never to restrict any build or parts usage. It was only a proposal to regulate height. Which for all intent and purposes doesn’t really prevent the most creative in any meanigful way, that stops them from creating a cool and creative figure.

[ToaKebaka]

Here are few of my takes:

1) The colors - I agree that the primary and main colors on Chiara should be blue and white as that is the color scheme of Lightning element. But primary and secondary colors dictate what colors are predominant in the color schemes of elemental characters, they do not say that those are the only ones that could be present. Once the Chiara contest rolles around she should be enforced to be primarily blue and white, yes. However moderate inclusion of other color as an accent color should not be prohibited.

To back this up we have many examples in canon of elemental characters having many different colors in addition to those which are dominant and often considered primary.

• Fire usually has various shades of red and orange, but many characters are also black, yellow, gold or even tan.

• Earth is black and dark grey, but there is also tan, orange and purple (which makes for a color scheme of Gravity actually)

• Ice sometimes has an otherwise uncharacteristic dark grey

Also, we have already allowed such color additions in the Helryx contest. There were some MOCs which inlcuded (and even to a large degree) tyrquoise, various shades of orange, black, gold and lime (again) even though none of those colors are considered to be representative of water element color scheme. Had any of those MOCs win, those colors would have become canon.
Again, I am not saying we shouldn’t mandate the dominant colors to be blue and white, but a few accent colors shouldn’t be outright hard banned either.

2) Weapons for unspecified Toa - Let the moccist decide the weapon of their choice. As others have mentioned, those are also the part of character’s appearance and them not being specified allows for more creativity.
This has kind of been expected in the beginnings of the contest (although this expectation might have been muffled over time and difficulties). We are already deciding the masks for those characters anyway, so the tools are no different in that regard.

[toaskello]

On elemental colors, I think it’s important to bring up the quotes that were found earlier this year which confirm that contrary to accepted belief, Greg doesn’t believe the colors for Sonics and Magnetism should be assumed from Krakua and Jovan’s models, respectively.

Sonics Quote | Magnetism Quote 1 | Magnetism Quote 2

Even in February 2010, when he knew there would never be a Magnetism set released that could contradict Jovan’s colors, he still didn’t indicate they were standard for the element.

While there’s quotes that say Zaria’s colors are burnt orange and metallic gray (but not silver), NOGLB states Varian has both azure and gold armor, and Nidhiki’s colors have been thoroughly discussed, I don’t think there are any canon materials that would indicate what color any of the other Toa on the list are, but I could be wrong. Interestingly, this means for each Toa on the list with unknown colors, there’s a Toa with a canon (or soon to be canon) appearance that are the standard colors. Chiara has Nikila, Orde has Varian, Tuyet has lots. I don’t think any doubt would be cast on what the standard colors for lightning would be if Chiara had different colors because the canon colors for lightning precede the Nikila contest.

Given all of this I don’t think there’s a good reason to mandate colors for any of the Toa without confirmed colors. I think voters will naturally tend towards standard colors anyway and anything too outlandish (red and green Tuyet, etc) can be dealt with the same way an outlandish build would be.

[Tarkur]

I sometimes feel like this topic is the “how can we cheat canon the easiest topic”

[Takutanuva]

I know right? How is it that everyone else is so wrong because they don’t see it exactly the way I imagined it?

[Racie02]

It isn’t about the canon, it’s about what we canon get away with.

[JMSOG]

@Tarkur

I sometimes feel like this topic is the “how can we cheat canon the easiest topic”

I mean, not necessarily in regards to color. G1 set designers, despite the cool sets they obviously created, I don’t think were necessarily putting the canon implication of element colors in the front of their minds when they designed sets. They made a blue set, and gave it lime green highlights because it looked cool, and that’s how we got Hahli Mahri, not because they found a list of acceptable secondary colors for ga-matoran and chose from that. They even outright broke canon for marketing reasons (stone characters, late 2006 to late 2008).

The discussion around color I think is important because it’s worth knowing just how much of that same freedom that G1 set designers had can be granted to the MOCists and artists.

I’d argue the fact that we even care about the fact that Orde’s colors were mentioned at all means we definitely care more about canon in our design here than G1 designers may have had the freedom to at times…we know that if Orde ever got released as a set in a hypothetical 2013, he would have been given some color pattern the designer found “cool”, and it would have been explained away in canon as “well, he got transformed” if it didn’t match the canon colors that had been previously stated.

I agree that these characters, if their colors were previously stated in a canon source, need to have that. but, if a canon basis can be found to expand beyond that, then awesome, the mocists and artists have another tool in their toolbox. Analyzing where there may be vagueness or gaps is an important step here, because I agree with this: the final design should not break or contradict canon.

We don’t have the power to make Stone gunmetal grey like Hewkii Inika, but maybe we can add some silver, like Onewa Hordika. that kind of scale.

EDIT: That being said: Eljay made a good point earlier about some of these characters setting a precident potentially. That is an extremely strong argument in “not coloring outside the lines”, so to speak, in regards to element color, and it’s something to keep in mind.

I’d also say that the only reason to introduce additional colors is if it makes the moc/art aesthetically better. If you’re gonna make Nidhiki half-pink for no good reason, it’d hopefully get rule 11’d.

[Winger]

maybe the real canon was the friends me made along the way…

wait a minute

[Racie02]

@JMSOG

gonna make Nidhiki half-pink for no good reason, it’d hopefully get rule 11’d.

Shouldn’t even need rule 11 for that, seeing as we have a quote on Nidhiki colours.

[Takutanuva]

@JMSOG

I’d also say that the only reason to introduce additional colors is if it makes the moc/art aesthetically better. If you’re gonna make Nidhiki half-pink for no good reason, it’d hopefully get rule 11’d.

Well in regards to this, I think it wouldn’t fly. I’d put pink into that “rare metals” category and as far as we know, the Hagah wore the rare materials.

I was making the discussion point because frankly I dont think it’s be crazy for Toa to wear some metallics like gunmetal or silver, basic stuff

[toaskello]

@JMSOG

EDIT: That being said: Eljay made a good point earlier about some of these characters setting a precident potentially. That is an extremely strong argument in “not coloring outside the lines”, so to speak, in regards to element color, and it’s something to keep in mind.

I guess I don’t see why this is a concern. A Toa with a build we’ve never seen before adds to canon (Helryx). A Toa with a new mask shape with no assigned power adds to canon (Gaaki). Lariska’s design will influence her entire species. As I stated in my post, for every Toa with unknown colors there’s a Toa of their element with their canon standard colors. Why is it a big deal if, say, Chiara has yellow highlights? We already know it’s not one of Lightning’s main colors, it’s just an additional one she happens to have. Some Toa just have uncommon colors.

[Takutanuva]

Completely agree, its not as if it changes what we already know about Toa in general in any way, just the singular characters

[StudentScissors]

In response to the argument of YDQ toa featuring non standard colours resulting in an addition to the lore I would just like to point out that the same argument could be leveled against previous contest winners.

Before the helryx contest we did not know what early matoran and toa characters looked like. Just that they were “inspired by/based off glatorian”

It could be argued that the winning helryx model sets a precedent that early toa have a “classic technic” aesthetic, which was never stated in the canon previously (In fact one could have inferred the opposite from Tahu stars and the previously stated glatorian connection). Is that not also adding to the canon?

similarly

the winning Kualus MOC added kualus’ scarf (and the fact the matoran universe even has scarves) to canon

[Tarkur]

@JMSOG

I mean, not necessarily in regards to color. G1 set designers, despite the cool sets they obviously created, I don’t think were necessarily putting the canon implication of element colors in the front of their minds when they designed sets. They made a blue set, and gave it lime green highlights because it looked cool, and that’s how we got Hahli Mahri, not because they found a list of acceptable secondary colors for ga-matoran and chose from that.

I think the designers were more involved with the lines lore than you give them credit. However we will only really see the end product so neither theory here is correct.

BUT…

As a second year design and product development student, I can say that designers has several tools too keep consistency while innovating and that the design proccess isn’t as straight forward as you make it out to be. Designers in general don’t slap together all willy nilly what they think looks cool and narrowing it down to that is a major disservice to the profession.

@JMSOG

They even outright broke canon for marketing reasons (stone characters, late 2006 to late 2008).

Also just an fyi, designers don’t really have any power over upper managment. If they got told to make the brown characters not brown there wasn’t much they could do. In design if you have a client, you going against their requests and specifications is a no go. Unless you could convincingly prove the client wrong and offer a reasonable counter proposal to why they should have it your way.

And to be honest as a designer you wouldn’t risk your job over something so little as a color. When marketing has shown definitive proof that toys with said color doesn’t sell

[KDNX]

This is a somewhat old reply by now, but there’s a distinction to be made between the armor that a Toa wears and the armor that naturally generates as part of their body. Any Toa can wear armor on their body, which is naturally armored.