Yeah it do be hard to get excited for something when you are not really told what you are supposed to be excited for, just that you should be excited, and belittled when you ask simple questions.
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The one thing I didn’t expect to see today was a negative post from Ghid criticizing my argument 
, but since I should have expected that, I’m going to let you off the hook.
Yes, you want Faber to be a shepherd organizing the sheeple. We’ve now moved from the idea of Faber as savior to the idea of Faber as fearless leader, neither of which he actually is.
The mistake in reasoning that you and a lot of people are making here is projecting your hopes of what you want Faber to be onto him, and then blaming him when he is not what you hope him to be. This guy is not a savior or a leader of the fans. The latter should be evidenced from this very topic, because his posts are out of touch with fan interests.
I think you missed this point, which is understandable given the length of my previous post:
I know what your argument is, Mr. Ghidora, because you have repeated it in this topic no less than 50 times and have proceeded to attack anyone who wants to venture any slightly different opinion. People who take a negative view of debate and characterize subjects as “beaten to death by arguments” are the ones standing on top of the chattering corpse heap of ideas. They are the ones who wish to shove ideas down people’s throats without entertaining a single counterargument, which is actually worse than a debate. At least in a debate, both sides can be heard and understood. This is not a debate - this is Ghid’s product steamroller.
Your opinion is this: Christian Faber has a Bionicle product - a specific Bionicle product - that he has developed and is holding out on, and he’s not telling the fans what it is because if he did, he would lose support from fans that don’t like the product and thus make his social media presence look bad.
Is that about right?
My argument is this: Christian Faber wants to bring back Bionicle without any specific product idea in mind, and is giving concept art to the fans to try and figure out what product he should build under the Bionicle name to sell to the older fans. He doesn’t want to make another G2, and instead he wants to involve the fans in the development process for the new story.
Now you quoted me to try and claim that I was supporting your argument, but Bionicle isn’t a specific product. There are sets, books, movies, video games - all products with the name “Bionicle” on them. The brand is NOT a specific product. Now you could argue that the name Bionicle is synonymous with 6-inch tall plastic Lego action figures, but Faber said that he wasn’t developing that, and he doesn’t have the means to develop that. He wants to develop a story instead.
Therefore, putting the Bionicle logo out there does not indicate a specific product is in development. Otherwise, this debate would already be over because we would know what the product IS. Bionicle refers to a group of products. Not a single product. We all intuitively know this - I shouldn’t have to point out the obvious.
Further, bringing back Bionicle without bringing back one part of the product constellation is corporate suicide, because the fans who aren’t into the part that came back will whine about the missing part that they want. Faber’s plans by themselves will alienate the set MoCist lobby, and they whine just as loud as the story people did back with G2.
This fandom barely has enough money to impact Lego’s bottom line. If Bionicle is to come back, we cannot afford to alienate a section of the fanbase. A Bionicle return needs sets and story in order to function. So unless we the fans and/or Lego itself find a way to rope the sets back in, Faber’s plans are doomed anyway. He’s nothing more than a sputtering visionary drawing concept art fanfiction with the aid of an expensive VR rig.
Have you actually asked Faber this question, or are you expecting him to read your mind?
I defer you back to Kini’s post “Don’t market what doesn’t exist.” If the product exists, why not just reveal it and generate hype for it instead of being cagey? Likewise, product teasers in social media marketing are usually only a few posts long (max 5) and they aren’t concept art. They don’t go on for three years.
Likewise, if concept art is revealed, it’s usually only after the product has been released. The actual social media information that we have is that Faber is trying to work with the fans of Bionicle to try and develop something. That’s what his social media presence indicates. That’s why he’s giving us all of the art.
And if you’re going to be negative about all of this, and we’re going to develop something based on Faber’s concept art, where we are going, we don’t need Ghidora.
Where we are going, we don’t need excitement
Bad Faber, bad! Be nice to your fan-friends, they had rough childhoods. No belittling! We have survived worse than you have ever known. Show some respect for our hardy souls.
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This is simply untrue. I wanted a yes or a no from Faber, and I got a shut up and stop complaining.
In fact, I’m going to make a generalization and say that nobody in the fandom is looking to Faber as a savior or fearless leader, and that calling the justified complaints against him and his terrible pr by those terms seems more like a strawman than an argument.
No.
You’ve read my 50 retorts, correct? The ‘Ghid’s product steamroller’, as you put it? Because I have never said that and I’ve even argued against the concept. My complaint is this and this only: Faber will not say if he is doing anything at all that he wishes to have end up as a consumer-ready product available for purchase, and to do so would take six seconds.
However, the brand does have products. Faber hasn’t said he’s making any product - for all anyone concretely knows, this could be simply him trying to generate hype for Rebel Nature (and there’s evidence in support of that theory, too).
Please keep in mind you quoted me in a year-old post to respond to an argument that had well and truly died at that point and frame your comments in a potentially less abrasive manner. We’re both old fogies of this fandom; we can and should be doing better than this.
On that last quote, I very much have asked Faber this question - multiple times. I know Faber reads this topic at the minimum and more likely than not has read my comments in particular.
And, well, that’s about it. Since you’ve read the topic, you know this argument has gone in circles countless times as most Boards arguments tend to go after a while, so there’s nothing really more to say. Any other points you brought up here I’ve already addressed or conceded to in the past, so I’ll be back when Faber has something new to say and more rust to pretend means something.
Where we’re going, we don’t need nothing.
wait
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Why fight, when you merely ruin your own reputations? If y’all can’t agree, at least entertain the idea of letting the rest of us say our own thoughts on this topic. Your arguments can be continued in private, but they are not helpful on a public forum.
My apologies if I have exceeded my authority here.
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There’s nothing stopping you from posting your thoughts here as well.
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But what if I have none?
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So you’re just mad that Faber won’t tell you whether or not Faber has a product available to buy?
I was just trying to establish that I had actually listened to what people were saying in the argument that I was responding to. I’ve been out of the loop for awhile.
I’m sorry for being harsh, and I actually laughed at many of your previous posts. If Faber hasn’t been answering your question, I can see why you’ve been frustrated.
I do agree that this whole thing could just be one protracted attempt to rope Bionicle fans into Rebel Nature, but it’s also possible that there’s something else here because of Faber being the Mystery-King-of-Know-Nothingness. A rather slim possibility at this point, but one nonetheless.
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One day, Faber hinted to me that he’d buy me an Xbox. 5 years later all he does is post pics of his own console that he might be making soon. Like what even is that?
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This, I think, sums up why I don’t think there’s any real movement that’s happened here with Faber’s stuff. As has been talked about prior (long in the past) Faber is inviting us to join him all on his ship… but we have no clue that he’s at dock 19 in Stockholm.
However.
This is the thing I’ve latched onto the most from your post:
Faber’s new and wild approach to Bionicle is the thing I’m most interested in from Biovival. These sketches of strange and unexplored lands make me want to explore. Using the framework of the biomechanical chronicle to develop and explore ideas that weren’t around for G1, in ways that aren’t quite yet around today.
And this is the thing that seems to differentiate me from most of the people in this thread: I’m very interested in seeing Faber’s work outside of Bionicle. Interest in Rebel Nature doesn’t seem very high, and the suggestion of a Bionicle spiritual successor from the original creator of Bionicle results in responses like this:
Being offered one thing and given another is, of course, reason for legitimate outrage, but what’s to say that Legally Distinct Bionicle:tm: is not “the good stuff?” Prior experience with G2? This isn’t quite that. If Faber manages to start this massive movement, working with us , then why does it need to be Bionicle specifically?
What stops us from enjoying something that is Bionicle in all but name?
Faber makes some great art, but I see nothing to be invested in beyond that. So I’m going to put my energy towards other things.
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Yeah, I could see how Stockholm Syndrome could be a thing here. He doesn’t realize the level of debate and criticism and dissection that this community has reached, and so he’s trapped. On one hand, he has all of these great Bionicle ideas inside of his head that are begging to be created, and on the other hand those ideas are being held hostage by the attitudes of the fan community and Lego’s financial quandary.
Said quandary is that the Bionicle fanbase is big enough to shout for Bionicle’s return, but not big enough to be profitable for a huge company like Lego.
Because this is the Bionicle fan community and he slapped the Bionicle logo on it. Now if old Faber was trying to make a new story series that wasn’t Rebel Nature or Bionicle, maybe I’d pay it some passing attention. But I didn’t come here for some other movement - I really don’t care for environmentalism.
Bionicle is the story series that told a young abuse victim - me - that I could be powerful. It taught me that boys have feelings and weaknesses and that they aren’t faceless enemies, which was two lessons I badly needed to learn. Now you can argue the fact that I had to learn both of those lessons from a children’s toyline is pathetic. It is pathetic, but the fact is that Bionicle means a lot to me, in the way that Rebel Nature or whatever else doesn’t. Now if you’re into environmentalism and like Faber’s new direction? Props to you. But I came here for 6 Toa fighting bad guys and having feelings, so Legally Distinct Bionicle Rebel-Nature-mix just doesn’t appeal to me.
And frankly, I’ve read so many stories with elemental powers at this point, wielded by humans or otherwise, and have enjoyed many of them. I’m just really really tired of fantasy elemental power stories with obvious political agendas behind them. If I wanted that, I’d go back to studying children’s literature at the university. Bionicle isn’t that, so it has more of an appeal.
Now Faber does have some storytelling credentials in my mind - he made the brilliant concept behind Bionicle, but Advance and Faber also made that cringe-worthy Invasion From Below episode in Hero Factory. I’m wondering whether he just got lucky (or unlucky, in the case of that awful tumor) and thus isn’t as sharp a storyteller as he might appear. This would go back into the huge forest of storyline quality debate that we have had in the Bionicle fandom ever since G1 ended. If his work is low-quality, I’m not inclined to trust it. It depends on what writer he gets for his story. I’m not sure I trust him off the chain.
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What’s the problem with Invasion From Below (besides the voices)?
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The heroes commit genocide and laugh about it.
Actually though, that part might not be Faber’s fault though; the ending got changed because someone at Advance felt the beasts weren’t scary enough. Them making peace with the beasts may very well have been Faber’s concept.
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Lack of plot and character substance - the beginning really felt like a product commercial instead of a story. The genocide part was the icing on the cake.
The best part was the landscape of the underground tunnels, which we know that Faber made, I think.
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Everything
No, really
the entire plot got changed before the deadline, there was an interview talking about the episode on lego’s youtube channel back in the day that confirmed this and people who worked on it were rushed
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I don’t know when this topic got so needlessly combative, but I guess I’m jumping into the fire now…
I don’t think anyone is of that opinion. That would imply that something already exists and is ready to go and that all Faber has to do is pull the trigger on it. From what we’ve seen for a long time now, I don’t think that’s the case at all.
In fact, as you yourself have argued, I don’t even think there is any sort of product at this time, just sort of soupy ideas.
And yea, this here is exactly what Ghid is “arguing” for. I wouldn’t even say arguing, I don’t think I’ve ever really seen him here trying to force people to agree with him, just see what he’s saying.
Yes.
I’m not because I’ve well and truly stopped caring about this entire Faber business about a year and a half ago, but I would say that generally, yes, it’s a reasonable reaction to be mad at Faber for attempting to leverage the emotions and nostalgia and hype of a fanbase without saying why.
Entirely in the same way that a Nintendo fan would be angry at Nintendo if that company were to start posting nebulous Mario concept art and then, in response to the question “is there a new Mario game coming out?” get the answer “we’re riding the winds with the sails of the Odyssey and reaching new heights and Galaxies. We don’t know where it will take us, but we’ll find it together as Super Stars!”
For three years. With no official announcements.
I’d almost be inclined to believe you if it weren’t for the fact that nowhere in anything Faber has posted has he asked directly for feedback, ideas, or specific products people would want to see.
He’s gotten a sure heck of a lot of that anyway from people projecting their pipedreams of G1 returning or G3 or what have you, but he’s never explicitly used his posts to poll or gauge the community. All he’s ever done is ask for vague “support,” which for many people fed up with all of this has seemed to mean “blindly follow everything I’m doing with this and say yes to all of it.”
Is some of the stuff he’s putting out cool? Yes, I’ve been personally inspired by it in some ways. But I’ve never gotten a sense that he’s attempting to figure out what we want, and he’s never expressed that either. It feels more like he’s doing something and wants us to follow him on that ride.
And I think it’s reasonable for people to react to being leveraged in a negative manner when they don’t know for what purpose.
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imagine if he’s just posting some art that he drew that just so happens to be bionicle /s"
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In case someone didn’t see this:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CeuHjgSrT5q/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
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My reaction, as always: This looks cool, but what actually is that?And where in Hero Factory does destruction play an actual thematic role in opposition to creation?
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Maybe it’s in a poetic sense, like “Heroes create peace, Villians destroy it”
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