LOL. That was pretty funny. Look, I know that Hero Factory did so, so many things wrong, but as an 11 year old child, at the time, I was able to associate colors with a certain hero, and that made things easy for me, like when they introduced Nex and Evo. Though they were incredibly stale, I still associated orange with Nex and yellow with Evo. And I in no way like Hero Factory more than Bionicle, just wanted to make that clear. I have come to realize that my opinion is pretty terrible, and honestly would just like to see G1 return, but I know that’s never going to happen. I really just want more element representation, if I had to pick just one thing to change.
How? all I would be changing would be the elements themselves and what the Toa can do
It wouldn’t change the fact there would still be six villages, six Toa .
I never said remove Makuta or the Masks. And I never said no Rahi. Sooo what’s your point here??
Well I haven’t read them yet (sorry 500 comments is a bit much to read through). But to get back on topic. Sorry this is just very poor logic. If we can lump Earth with Stone why can’t we lump Ice with Water?
I didn’t give him FIRE powers at all! Superheated Rock is superheated rock that’s NOT fire! He’s not going to shoot Lava from his palms or anything. He could just heat up the earth around him.
Ice IS Water and Water IS Ice. How hard it is to say a Toa of Water can change the temperature of the water in the same way a Toa of Fire could change the temperature of his flame? We don’t need a Toa of Ice in the Same way we don’t need a Toa of Stone (or Vice Versa)
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I think bionicle is,
Six toa,
Separate, mystical elements
Masks of power
The juxtaposition of tribalism/nature and mechanical beings
An island setting
A more serious story
Ultimately the villains name doesn’t matter, ultimately the heroes names don’t matter(though using the names of the mata just feels, right, respectful even).
Like literally every other action theme? Including bionicle?
What part of earths powers would allow him to heat the earth then? Heating things is associated with fire.
They are now a toa of cold and toa of liquid, now, tell me the same thing.
Ok this is just a stupid argument. H2O is H2O just because the molecules conglomerate together when it’s 32 degrees or less doesn’t change that. This is a really simple change and it comes off to me like you’re just trying to save Kopaka (or Ice as an Element)
Sure heating is associated with Fire but It’s not exclusive and were someone like Onua to do this it could only be done on earth. He’s not going to like set a bush on fire or something. I see no issue with a Toa being to manipulating an element into a different form.
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listen to me, very carefully,
THE ELEMENTS, ARE NOT, LITERALLY, THE SUBSTANCES THEY ARE NAMED AFTER.
Ice, is the ability to cool/freeze things, water, is the ability to move liquids.
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I get what your saying but it’s really poor logic. It doesn’t make sense Gali cannot control Ice because it’s not a Liquid. Sorry that’s just silly. This the Elements are not the substances argument is flawed because THEY ARE THE SUBSTANCES!!! There is no “well Kopaka can only freeze things and Gali can move liquids” that was never established. I mean I don’t know how else to tell you that if you have a Toa of WATER then by that she/he should only be able to control WATER or anything WITH WATER. Otherwise by the logic of “oh well she can move liquids too” there’d be a bunch of weird convoluted scenarios that would make no sense. The only reason Gali and Kopaka could never interchange elements was because they made and Ice element and said “oh well he can only control Ice” and they made a Water Element and said “she can only control water” is that simple? Sure, but it’s also really stupid and makes no sense. I was like 7 and me and several of my friends wondered why Ice and Water couldn’t be one element. It’s not a hard concept to grasp and changing that by giving it ONE Toa wouldn’t complicate the story at all.
In the same manner saying a Toa of Earth could convert Earth to Lava wouldn’t be a stretch because Lava is just melted rocks NOT fire!
We need to stop treating kids like they’re dumb and cannot grasp these concepts they are extremely simple and easy to grasp and like I said it would not be all at once it would be a slow and gradual introduction as the characters grow. Onua wouldn’t come from wherever at the very start and be like “Hey I can make these rocks turn to Lava” nor would Gali come out like “hey I can turn this Water into ice” there powers that would be discovered as they face newer more dangerous foes or certain situations push them into discovering them.
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Look, the toa have kinesis over their respective element, saying frozen things are all water is stupid, kopaka could make and control dry ice, which, may I point out, isn’t water.
Fire and ice have been given the ability to heat and cool things respectively, because their elements are relative to those powers, if you give those powers to other elements you may as well give them to all the elements
Well technically it’d be going to Water too. Some elements would obviously benefit from having that. If something like Jungle/Plantlife did it…nothing would happen so why bother giving it to that guy. Instead of that he could maybe change the structure of the plant into like wood or something. These sub-powers don’t have to be complicated at all. They’re just designed to be an extension of the Toa’s power and provide something different so that they’re powers don’t get boring to the point where we have to shove in a new Toa or Mask every year. Year 2 could be the Toa discovering their sub-powers. Some of them could get new abilities like the power to manipulate iron or Lava or the power to change their water into Ice. Maybe something like Fire could just get a really hot flame like Blue or White fire that burns hotter. It’s Not that hard to get. You can do these without making a certain aspect of control over an element like heating or cooling mutually exclusive to one element.
Yah that was just because It had the name ICE in it. There’s really nothing else other than that. It’d be really stupid and make no sense. Saying a Toa of Water or Ice could control Water or Ice because they’re the same thing would. Sorry but at this point you’re just saying a Toa of Ice can only control cold solids basically and that point why is he a Toa of Ice? Because he’s not controlling Ice, he’s just controlling anything that’s cold and not a liquid. It’s really dumb and it make no reasonable sense at that point
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Yes, like every other action theme, including, but not limited to, Bionicle, Ninjago, throwbots, and even Exo Force, Hero Factory was able to do that too. I wasn’t saying the others didn’t, just defending that Hero Factory at least did that right.
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I can kinda get Gali having dominion over both Water and Ice (though I’d still like to retain them separate) but Onua being able to control MAGMA!?
Assuming Toa can change the temperature of their elements is already a stretch. Especially since, at least in G1, the power of both a Fire and Earth Toa were neccesary to create magma.
He can move frozen objects, he could throw a frozen bohrok at your head.
Are you serious right now?
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Yes. Because this argument is painfully dumb. He can control Solids that are cold. Then that’s NOT ICE!! So why the heck are we calling him a Toa of Ice if he’s really the Toa of Cold things that are not Liquids or Gas. It’s dumb. A Toa of Ice should be able to control ICE just as a Toa of Water should be able to control WATER which are the SAME thing. If they’re just the Toa of Liquid and the Toa of Cold Solid Things, why bother calling them Ice or Water?? There’s no reason to that. That’s just dumb! If he can throw a Frozen Bohrok head then it better be because there’s ICE on that Bohorok’s head which is Also frozen WATER.
I mean if you really wanna break this down there’s no real meta reason Lego made the decision to split them other than Lego needed a White Toa and a Blue Toa. That’s it. Period. There is none of this “Oh well one can only move it because it’s cold and a solid and the other one can only move liquids”.
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Alright. I said I was done, but I’m actually mad now.
HE. IS. DISAGREEING WITH YOU. THAT IS PERFECTLY FINE. HE WANTS THE ELEMENTS TO BE CHANGED SO THAT THEY MAKE MORE SENSE SCIENTIFICALLY, AND THAT IS AN OKAY OPINION TO HAVE.
You really need to accept that people can, and will, disagree with you.
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Because water and ice are calloqueally better names that figuratively represent the same concepts.
I pity you if you’re that literal minded.
*eye twitch
I’ve been trying to reach some sort of consensus this entire time, I’ve even conceded on some points, nobody will listen to each other, nobody will budge on any of their ideas. I’ve realized that this will never actually go anywhere, because no one will ever reach a compromise on ANYTHING!
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Yeah people
Try to reach compromises n schnazz
This topic is becoming incredibly flame war-y
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Well…this is what happens when Great Beings know HOW many people on this message board try to rewrite beloved characters and established lore. 
Though this isn’t the worst one I’ve seen cough Star Wars Fandom cough
I guess he’s now Kopaka “The Figurative Toa of Ice”.
I just disagree entirely that Ice is some placeholder word for what you’re trying to define it as. That’s even more ridiculously convoluted than the concept of sub-powers. Like I can’t fathom how much ridiculous stretching that requires. Obviously there is NO WAY we’re going to reach a consensus here, you obviously have a very different mindset as to how Elements in Bionicle are supposed to work and I don’t agree with it but this conversation is just getting fruitless, tiresome and curricular. So let’s just bury the hatchet on this and call it a night (it’s late over here and I gotta get up early)
Possible, but it just seems too deep (for my subjective taste), Fire Water Air that stuff was all what some ancients believed to literally comprise the earth, Plato had to think of all sorts of ways to disprove it, so idk maybe I just want something tangible 
I still love gravity as an element, just maybe not a main one
The only ice in the mu was crystal protodermis, not water, I’m not trying to define it any different from how the canon presents it.
Wow, I leave for one hour and everyone loses their minds. Can we cut down on the yell text please?
True.
Even more true.
I can see the ice debate has become the new iron debate, this is really simple to take care of though. I only see one person arguing for ice to disappear, but the others may just be less vocal. I don’t feel like watching this go in for three days so I’m just gonna skip to how we ended the last one of these: put it in the hands of the people.
Should ice and water be separate?
- Yes
- No
0
voters
Now as far as the sun elements, I’m against them. They overcomplicate each element when you can just show the growth in strength within each element. A water whip is different from a tidal wave, a rock is different from a boulder, and a torch is different from an inferno.
It’s not about the element itself but rather about the properties of the element in that state.
Ice is more durable, and water is more fluid.
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