POLL: BIONICLE G1 Canonization Contests?

[Arceane64]

Eh. I’m not big on this. One hand, yes, it would be cool to provide visual representation for those ‘no image available’ slots on the wiki pages and the like. Especially on characters that are truly ambiguous, such as Marendar and the Golden-Skinned Being.

However, I do feel a bit conflicted in regards to the creative factor. Having a canon interpretation of the characters means that we do have a clear idea for how they look, but I feel like it also could take away from the imagination and creative factor that has become so pertinent to storytelling projects through the medium of Bionicle. The community has really transformed in the past ten years since the cancellation of G1, and things like ‘canon model depictions’ just don’t seem to matter as much anymore, at least to me.

The community has also gone a very long time without really needing any kind of spearhead or main focusing power. Everyone does their own thing nowadays. It’s not like we really need someone to come in and tell us what’s canon and non-canon anymore in terms of character designs and builds. For the record, I greatly appreciate Greg and all of the work he’s done for the franchise, but I just think the community has outgrown that kind of necessity for a single factual depiction of any character.

[Flux]

I guess for the 3D printed pieces, there should be the requirement that the piece must be on Thingiverse to enter the competition. On Thingiverse you don’t need to pay the creator a cent, thus no monopolization, however it gives you the option to tip them.

That’s just an idea I came up quickly to somewhat help that issue, of course there would be some loophole with it, I don’t doubt that.

[fangface1]

Personally, I don’t have much care for visual depictions of characters at this point. I think people having their own interpretations of the characters is more valuable at this point. If the story was still going I might feel different but with how long it’s been people have had plenty of time to build the interpretations themselves.

That said, if story contests were to come back I may be in favor of that. There’s still many facets of the lore that could be explored in side stories. I know there may be complications with that, but if we can make designs official I’m not sure what stops us from making stories official.

[TheSecretWalrus]

If it happens I’d say try one out to test the waters and go from there.

While canonization contests will probably breath a good bit of extra life into the community it also limits people’s ability to make their own interpretations of characters (and takes away from what little mystery is still left in the Bionicle canon).

Maybe a good balance could be met where you do one character once a year or two and leave it at that and not go overboard, but honestly I’m still not sure.

[Dorek]

That’ll be a hard no from me. Logistics aside, these contests will have strayed so far from their original design that it would just be a laughable parody. There’s no reason we need an “official” representation of any character/thing/whatever, one image to rule them all. Let the community roam free, not encumbered by needless restrictions.

It at least made sense back when there were fewer communities overall, things were more centralized and less splintered. Now we have plenty of places (and plenty of creativity!) that to force these weird boxes onto things just feels reductive to all the great creations people churn out every day.

Even IF (and my stance is still a “noooope”) this were to happen, a hearty “ew” to using 3D printed parts. I mean nothing against the cool designs people come up with and creative designs people spend time over, but that’s adding in a ridiculously lopsided wildcard. Arm length slightly too short? 3D print it! Need a cool mask? Well, if you’re better at 3D modeling than somebody else, you’re golden! It’s the same as the age-old rule of not having painted or modified parts. And, as I think has been pointed out, it gets into some icky territory if you were to consider somebody more than likely financially benefiting from this in some way, be it if they win or simply as a commissionable resource.

[Planetperson]

Tentatively, yes, but I want to think about it more. (I haven’t voted yet.) I’ll give some of my initial thoughts here.

My main concerns are quality control and consistency with the original Bionicle theme.

3D Printed Parts

I am totally in favor of allowing 3D printed parts, digital MOCs, or using any other technology that could improve the quality and creativity of the submissions, echoing the reasons that @Mesonak gave. The proliferation of cheap 3D printing and free 3D modeling software is a windfall gain for the Bionicle community, and I think we should take full advantage of that. I would point to some of the excellent work by Red Star Games as an example of this. I also have no problem with using parts in colors that do not officially exist in plastic… although creators should keep in mind that people may want to build their designs in plastic. Of course, creators should keep in mind that overdoing it with custom parts could come off as tacky and affect their MOC’s chances of being accepted.

Designing new masks, weapons, and parts is simply necessary for many characters, such as the Toa Hagah or unseen Rahkshi. I agree that using existing parts as a stand-in is unsatisfying and lame.

However, I think new mask designs should be decided in their own, separate contests. MOCs for characters should not canonize new mask designs as a side-effect. I think this would address concerns like @Ghid’s.

As @Flux suggested, a simple way to avoid monopolization of 3D parts is to require contest winners to open-source their designs free of charge.

CCBS

For the sake of consistency with the original Bionicle theme, I am very much against the use of CCBS and G2 masks and pieces, and I would only be in favor of these contests if there were limitations on the use of G2 parts. It is my opinion that CCBS is too different from the original Technic style and just doesn’t “feel Bionicle.” Using an occasional CCBS part to serve a structural role that older Technic pieces cannot is fine, but CCBS should not characterize the look and feel of the MOC. It should look like a G1 set. With digital design programs and Bricklink, I don’t think it’s too hard for newer fans to construct MOCs in the old style (but I’m guessing these contests are mostly of interest to older fans anyway).

Contest Format

For the sake of quality, I agree with @UmbrellaDemon that there should not be a strict time limit. I think a system like LEGO Ideas would be more appropriate. If a proposed MOC is good, people will vote for it, and it will get accepted. If not, it’s not worth adding to canon. I think some poor submissions came out of the old contests simply because the quality of the submissions wasn’t that good to begin with, and that is a problem I would like to avoid in the future.

There should also be measures for ensuring that submissions are consistent with existing canon.

Other thoughts

Bionicle has long been a story with multiple depictions for the same thing – namely, the Lego toy and the movie versions of characters. Both are considered canon, but they should at least be self-consistent. So, no movie-style MOCs (even though I think those can look really cool!). If we are holding MOC contests, I think we should have style guidelines that ensure consistency with the toys. For example:

• no heartlights (they are shown in the movies and described in the books, but not included in sets)
• Toa, Matoran, and Turaga should not have fingers
• MOCs should be to scale with official models, consistent with their sizes in canon
• no masks with mouths or eyebrows

Finally, I totally hear arguments like @Arceane64’s, @fangface1’s, @Dorek’s, and @Peri’s. Maybe it’s best for us to have our own head-canons after all. If you want fanon, head to RSG.

[Kiixaar]

I logged on to the TTV message boards for the first time in years to answer this poll.

I voted Yes. This has definitely rekindled my interest in G1 Bionicle. I don’t much care for any rules or stipulations about the contests, but I feel that the canonization contests were a part of what made G1 Bionicle special. The fact that any fan could, with enough skill and hard work, contribute to the official story, is something that few if any other fandoms have. This is a wonderful opportunity, I forsee a lot more life being breathed into this community.

[Arceane64]

What do you mean, ‘if you want fanon?’ The community is twenty years old at this point with only half of that time following an active theme. Everything the community has done for the past ten plus years has been fanon, why stop now? Why nail up the new distinctions in character designs, when we haven’t needed that sort of thing until now?

[Wixhael]

Like the majority of voters so far, I would be thrilled to get new canonization contests, and with them, “new” BIONICLE content. The idea of classic characters getting official designs after all these years is certainly a thrilling one, and I’d hate to pass it up.

However, just like the majority of voters, I also believe there is a discussion to be had about 3D printed parts. Personally, I’m all for them, to an extent, at least. I’d say probably no new parts or connections, just masks, as that can prevent more confusing builds and allow for more ease of access. But as far as masks are concerned, I actually think they could be used very well. Maybe not for builds requiring, say, a Hau, since we already have multiple incarnations of it, but for masks that never got an official design, such as the Pehkui or Mask of Intangibility, or masks where we never got a “traditional” design, getting mutated/organic/otherwise transformed designs instead, like the Tryna or Volitak. There’s also a precedent of new mask designs being allowed in some cases, like Nikila’s Mask of Possibilities, which wasn’t even a 3D model/printed part, just hand-drawn artwork of a completely original mask.

TL;DR: I’m all for more canonization contests, and there definitely needs to be a conversation about 3D printed masks and other parts.

[Planetperson]

I was pointing to RSG as an example in favor of your argument, since it is a community that produces content that is compatible with canon but not itself canon, and does not preclude the possibility of other interpretations.

[Petrus]

We have our own opinions on this but are currently debating internally whether we should make a public statement. We don’t want to spoil the fun.

[Leoxander]

I’m ready for this. Time for something new to argue.

[HIMEROSY]

Even for MoC Contests, you could still have the winning MoC get followed-up by art submissions, like with Certavus.

[Mesonak]

Yeah, we definitely will do that.

[Wolk]

@Planetperson

3D Printed Parts

As @ Flux suggested, a simple way to avoid monopolization of 3D parts is to require contest winners to open-source their designs free of charge.

But how would this apply to using somebody else’s model?.. Say I order a part on Shapeways, use it in a MOC which then wins. Would then the modeller have to open-source that part because someone else used the part in a winning MOC? That does not seem fair to the modeller.

Besides the logistical nightmares;

@Mesonak

We live in an era where 3D printed parts make up an intrinsic element of the BIONICLE community, and where they are readily able to be purchased and used even by people who don’t have the capability to print them themselves thanks to Shapeways. To limit them feels like an arbitrary restriction upon creativity, and would force some of these very significant characters to potentially use old mask designs, which feels arbitrary, restrictive, and lame.

You say that, but limitations inspire creativity, and this is something that we see time and time again in LEGO MOCs, that people can manage to get around the limitations in creative ways using only the pieces that LEGO has given us. I believe that on an “official” BIONICLE model, being a LEGO theme, there should only be LEGO pieces in use. By proxy of being canon, these models would there by be “official.” And BIONICLE is still a LEGO theme, there is no denying that.

If we are to allow 3D printed parts, then what’s stopping us from just making 3D printed statuettes and calling that a day? At what point does it stop being a LEGO MOC?

I’d love to hear what the actual 3D modellers out there have to say on this. Do they want their 3D models used in canonization contests? I don’t think a lot of the masks on Shapeways were put up with this possibility in mind.

[fangface1]

@Wolk

But how would this apply to using somebody else’s model?.. Say I order a part on Shapeways, use it in a MOC which then wins. Would then the modeller have to open-source that part because someone else used the part in a winning MOC? That does not seem fair to the modeller.

It would probably make more sense to do it the other way around. To make it so that to be entered into the contest, it has to be open-source first.

[Diero]

I’m too young to have ever participated in one of these before, so I’d be all for it.

[Petrus]

Honestly that could work.

[Scorpion_Strike]

As long as the contests concern the appearance of characters and locations, in MOC or art formes, and stay clear of trying to nail down canon minutia related to powers and masks and such, I’m all for it… Use the contests to give visual representation to parts of the canon rather than trying to expand it otherwise.

[Gonel]

OTHER

I’m inclined to say yes, but as it could stray into touchy territory depending on how it’s handled, it would have to be done with great care. Canon has always been a touchy subject, especially among those of us who are pretty passionate about our headcanons, and likewise having canon appearances for certain characters would risk stepping on the toes of those attached to their own forms. Not to mention that if this venue is used to make radical changes to the lore (looking at you, Velika and agents) would be a big turnoff for me and others, to say the least. In general, I strongly feel that retcons in this way are best used to either simplify and streamline lore that’s needlessly complex, or to add something that really compliments or completes existing lore. That said, I could see exceptions I could see to this might be a contest in the vein of the Dark Hunter or Rahi contests to flesh out Order of Mata Nui ranks, since that’s an area that could vastly afford to be expanded upon. That said, perhaps it would be worth making contest winners that would have storyline impact semi-canon–or if there isn’t a strong majority of people who want said contest held, but there’s still a majority, declaring beforehand that the contest results will be semicanon. heck, we could even go so far as to hold the contest, and then vote afterwards to determine if the winner would be canon or semicanon lol

Overall, there are a lot of areas in the lore that could afford being expanded or fleshed out–but arguably more areas that really wouldn’t be worth filling in. Stuff like, for example, most '08-10 serial content, like say the canon appearance of the Golden-Skinned Being, I don’t think are worth presenting and are better left to the imaginations (unless it were a really sick combiner of those sets–but still :)) whereas on the other hand, the canon appearances of Toa Hagah and Toa Mangai, as teams with a significant canon role and several members already realized in canon, would be well worth seeing, especially if they’re built to look like members of the team.

And since people will inevitably disagree on what they think is worth realizing and what isn’t, I think in general, a feel should be get of the community, or a vote held, before any such contest is conducted. Not to mention the various disparate communities of the fandom these days–nothing is nearly as centralized as it once was on BZP–and as much as I respect how far TTV has come and a lot of what they do, I don’t think this site or its leaders should inherently hold a monopoly on running these things. Some neutral site would be ideal, but who knows how that would work.

If this post doesn’t seem concrete or doesn’t favor one side or another, it’s because, while I really want to see stuff like this happen, there’s a lot of stuff I could see people getting carried away with canonizing dumb stuff that is better left to the imagination. If I think of anything else worth adding here, or if my opinion changes in light of what’s presented here, I may change my vote, but I couldn’t see it. In general, this will be a matter that should be handled very delicately, no matter who does it.

Goodness knows there’s plenty more that I could say on the matter. If the vote turns in favor of canonization, we should dedicate a topic to discussing the best approaches to such contests–and then arguably hold a poll to determine the best strategy to approach it.

…

PS: I’m generally opposed to the idea of CCBS inclusion, unless it’s a design that really nails it (I guess the contest would decide on that front). On the matter of 3D masks and select pieces, I think they should be included, but
A) Regarding masks or major pieces of inclusion, separate votes should be held before a contest involving said masks, as to the appearance of that mask,
B) Said masks and pieces should be made publicly available if they are canonized,
C) If there are any other 3D parts that would logically have to be included in order to build an effective representation of the set, they should be generally agreed upon going into the contest–or if someone takes a risk and includes a 3D piece, they should know it could be to their detriment.
D) If it were, for example, something with a precedence in canon, like a Rahkshi spine for any of unnamed Rahkshi or whatever, then I see no problem with including that. Having a 3D part for, like, an extended arm, when there’s no need for it, would be much harder to justify.