Post-G1 BIONICLE Canon Contests Discussion Topic

LEGO BIONICLE
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I don’t particularly care who wants to host these contests from here on, but I hope they take posts like these to heart.

100% this. Great MOCs were disregarded entirely for no reason other they challenged norms. And while that’s to be expected of a voting-based system I still think it’s rather unfortunate.

It seems to me that people wanted these contests as a way to breathe new life into a 20-year-old franchise yet (IMO) squandered the opportunity by choosing the entries that most reflected these norms.

While I haven’t been in the community long enough to have a firm grasp on the subject, I think it’s worth mentioning that these norms have no doubt changed numerous times since the community was founded and will change again. Whatever they are now and whatever they will be in the future I hope people can see there’s a desire for interpretations that challenge norms.

While I don’t think the future of these contests should be built on changing fundamental design choices, I do hope that the hosts and contestants can open their mind to the possibility of canonizing (however that can be defined) such remakes.

The point of all this being that I don’t want to see the future canonization contests (in whatever form they take) have rules that, directly or indirectly, harm (or DQ) entries that challenge norms. I’d like to see more participants/voters appreciate such remakes but that can only happen if they’re given a platform.

This is a whole other discussion but some quick final thoughts.

My preference for these contests isn’t to make them contests at all but open collabs akin to Herofebruary. No more arguing over what should or shouldn’t be canon, the prize is simply the enjoyment of participating and celebrating the love of the hobby, and everyone is free to determine their favorite entry as canon.

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I don’t really agree with the notion that challenging the norm should’ve been the norm for the canon contests since the norm would have been set by the information provided by canon sources.

I can see making small alterations and reinvent old concepts as a healthy challenging of norm for such contest but again challenging the norms set by canon just because to me seems like missing the point.

However I’m not sure what you argued so feel free to correct me wherever you feel I misinterpret you.

However as for fanon contest I do not see any problem with challenging norms.

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This idea would probably be the easiest to execute while not having to deal with much backlash.

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Challenging norms being the standard or done for the sake of it isn’t the point I’m trying to make. I simply want to see hosts and voters be more willing to accept such remakes and the best way to do so is to keep the contest rules as relaxed as possible, so more derivative/challenging remakes have a platform.

Tbh I think you and I are trying to argue the same point here. I’m not the most eloquent person so if I made it unclear then my bad lol.

As far as I’m concerned, the future of these contests should be exclusively focused on fanon/headcanon with the canon information being loose guidelines and not strict rules. Disbarring entries that challenge norms only discourages participation. I’ve seen it in my 5 years doing Bio-Cup and both years of Herofebruary. It also shows a faith in the voting process which is crucial to audience engagement.

I think my proposal here does the best job at accommodating everyone. It’s simple to organize, easy to understand, low stakes, and open to all kinds of participants and entries.

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The way I see it, the adherence to canon is the one thing that separates this contest from other contests and colabs. More abstract designs should be permitted, but voting on those designs soley on how cool they look, as opposed to how well they fit into canon kind of undermines the purpose of this particular brand of contests.

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I’ve always approached these from the perspective that they’re build contests first and foremost and should reward (or at the very least) encourage creativity. FWIW I also don’t think entries should be voted on solely for how cool they look. I’ve heard people make the argument before that “cool factor” (read as: creativite liberties) and canon don’t/can’t meet halfway, and I just don’t believe that.

Take these MOCs for instance:

Helryx by Anthony Wilson
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Helryx: Ancient Guardian (Canon Contest #1: The First) - Creative Content / Lego Creations - The TTV Message Boards (ttvchannel.com)

Artakha by Mitch Phillips

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Artakha (Meet the Maker) - Creative Content / Lego Creations - The TTV Message Boards (ttvchannel.com)

Both MOCs are exceptional on a technical level, are incredibly distinct and original, and are a breath of fresh air in a 20-year-old franchise yet neither deviate from the canon information provided. However, despite some strong support in the comments, they both fell out of the running simply because they didn’t fit what the majority perceived as at adherent to canon. Or, as Toa of Snow said earlier:

Adherence to canon is a subjective statement and everyone will interpret it differently. IMO entries with creative liberties or entries that challenge norms don’t undermine the purpose of these contests because the purpose is to show off your interpretation of the provided canon information.

If the results of the contest don’t match your vision of the character then you don’t have to accept them. And as you said yourself nobody can fairly enforce the results

Now I realize that I sound pretty argumentative/confrontational right now but I’m not trying to be so don’t take any of this personally. It’s just something that’s been on my mind for a while now and I’m just trying to put it into words.

This is why I believe an open collab is the right call moving forward. An open collab, on top of being simple to organize and easy to understand:

  • allows anyone to enter their interpretation of the canon information
  • allows the community at large, participants or not, to choose their favorite entry as the “true” version of the character.
  • Does not discourage people from building their own versions of characters after a canon appearance is decided
  • Is a low stakes community effort with no competition.
  • keeps the guidelines loose, encouraging long-term and repeat participation

You could still hold a vote for “community favorite” and this could have a small prize (or simply bragging rights) but in my experience, for a community effort on such a large scale, the lower the stakes and looser the guideline the better the experience for the participants.

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I agree with you

Though I’d also argue that the mocs you shared fit in g1 well enough :stuck_out_tongue:

No no, you’re fine

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Isn’t canon compliance the exact opposite of a subjective statement? A model either follows canon or it doesn’t.

I think what you and @Toa-of-Snow (and a lot of other people) are actually talking about is “Bionicle aesthetic”, which is far more subjective and isn’t really established in canon.

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So would I but there’s a lot who didn’t. Which I think is a shame but that’s just my opinion lol

yeah, you hit the nail on the head. I suppose a better way to say it would be that people tend to conflate Bionicle aesthetic with canon compliant when they say that creative liberties can’t coexist with adherence to canon. Which I would disagree with.

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the gigachad bonkles we didn’t know we needed :weary:

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I mean, don’t mind me I’m just making a jedi dressed stormtrooper with a tusken head and say its canon now.

If that was my headcanon I wouldn’t bat an eye to it but if that was actually canon as in approved by Disney it would bother me. Not only is it a complete subvertion of expectation but not in a good way its also completely nonsensical and wouldn’t fit the astehtic of the empires army in anyway and would come across as a cheap photoshop and ruin the immersion of the world.

I get the want to be creative but a living breathing world would have rules and guidelines for what works for certain characters visually. Breaking away from that breaks immersion and strains the suspension of disbelief. So if I had to attribute the lose of some of the mocs you brought up as examples it would be just that they simply failed at keeping a familiar visual identity with canon.

Two more star wars parallells I can think of is for example how dumb it would be to make a battle droid in the shape of a protocol droid and no I don’t mean the way a battle droid head got wealded to c3po’s body in attack of the clones but more like replacing the entire army with cookie cutter episode 1 c3po’s with laser guns instead of the regular battle droid designs. So be honest with me would you be able to take that seriously?

The second example is the modders and their speeder bikes from book of boba. The modders aren’t exactly the problem in this example, they still look weird but if you squint they look star warsy enough. The main problem is actually their bikes having a very 50s inspired design language something that is very connected to the real world and has a historical significance unrelated to star wars which makes them stand out like a sore thumb and just in general break immersion, due to them being alien to the setting and the universe visual identity.

My point is creativity is cool and all but there is more to characters in an established world than just making something that looks cool. When designing canon characters you should probably consider that you are designing for that world and the people who enjoy the world and not just the ones who enjoy the crazy builds you can do with the toys.(when I say “you” I’m speaking generally and I am not referring to you CZQ).

However in the case of a contest where the result have no bearing on canon all of what I just said could be disregarded but this is why how mocs looked visually mattered so much in the Hagah, Helryx and Arthaka contests.

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a’sharad hett

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Not even close to what I meant tbh.

First of he’s a human, second not really a stormtrooper, thirdly not aligned with the galactic empire.

Lastly a tusken jedi can exist. Any being can be jedi. However a stormtrooper wouldn’t be a tusken jedi because it wouldn’t make canonical sense based on what we know of stormtroopers and the empires armies.

Edit: yes he is affiliated with the tuskens(group) but he is not a tusken(being) and yes he is affiliated with the dark side but still not a stormtrooper. Also its legends(right?) so not really canon anymore.

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From my point of view, Disney isn’t canon anymore.

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As a quick aside, as Jerminator said, in my previous posts I should’ve said Bionicle aesthtic in most instances where I said canon compliant/adherence to canon, so I’ll try to use both terms with more purpose from here on.

Maybe to some, and that’s certainly valid, but I think that kind of proves my point about people conflating their vision of Bionicle aesthetic with canon compliant.

I agree, and I will stand by that the MOCs I highlighted are more than simply cool and could fit well into G1.

Unless you’re referring to MOCs that are near identical to official sets then this is what I mean by conflating bionicle aesthetic with canon compliant.

But you bring up a good point. Brand identity is important, and I understand the desire for it, but IMO this is a great opportunity to expand the possibilities in the Bionicle universe. Bionicle characters have taken many forms in both official sets and formerly canonized designs. Who’s to say we’ve seen every possibility? There’s no precedent for designs like these, so why not set precedent?

While I’m not a fan myself (and couldn’t really back this up without some help lol), from what I understand, the Transformers series has gotten a lot of backlash for how many reboots have been derivative of G1, while some of the more inventive reboots are the most praised.

Just as an aside here, I think Star Wars was a funny example because almost everything that fans like has been derivative of what was established in the original trilogy. The series has struggled to grow because new ideas are almost always met with backlash. A 50s biker gang in Star Wars sounds kinda cool to me personally lol.

back on topic. trying not to repeat myself here but that’s why the open collab works. If there’s a MOC that you think fits the brand identity, then you can decide that that entry is the official “canon” design. If there are some that don’t to you then you can disregard them and let others decide for themselves. Likewise, I’m using “you” in a general sense lol.

I don’t want to come across like people’s nostalgia/attachments/biases to certain design choices is illegitimate or unfounded, so I wanted to suggest something that takes that kind of mindset into account.

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So there’s been a lot more discussion happening here, and I wanted to actually run this by people since it appears there’s enough interest in the concept.

I know Duckbricks is maybe going to run some kind of fanon contests on a separate site, and if they occur they’ll likely get incorporated into some major fan projects like RSG or whatever continuation stuff is happening will Wall of History or whatever. I hope it goes well for him and everyone involved.

But that’s the thing - it’s going to be treated with the utmost seriousness despite being non-canon so it can fit into as many pre-established works as possible. While for some people this is the perfect possible outcome, with no vested interest in any of these works I can’t help but feel decidedly disinterested in participating when it’s going to be taken rather seriously by the community - it’d become the primary answer to the gaps in official canon to look to the first, the biggest, the most supported answer first.

So here’s my proposition.

GHIDONICLE™️ Fanon Contests
-two weeks of entries
-one week of voting
-the winner receives a $10 LEGO gift card

I’d need to set things up with the staff because I have no access to the kind of voting system they used (as far as I know, anyway). Masters can host a maximum of three contests a year and it would be an incredibly small expenditure on my part. I greatly doubt they would attract the same infamy the past contests did since they don’t alter canon and have no pre-existing guaranteed use by any major projects, so it would serve solely as another source of inspiration for people.

I would refine things quite a bit further before they would actually occur, like instituting the custom part/mask policy TTV had in place, and I have no idea if an art contest would be popular enough to have occur (it would double the number of contests, so I couldn’t actually do that on my own) but I’d like to know people’s thoughts.

What do you think? Would it be worth it to have occur?

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people wanted these contests as a way to breathe new life into a 20-year-old franchise yet (IMO) squandered the opportunity by choosing the entries that most reflected these norms.

Dude the G1 Mask of Creation is literally just a G2 Hau with Coliseum spires on it. Helryx’s mask is a roborider head mixed with the mask of light. The fans collectively seem to want more of the same.

Having said that, Anthony’s Helryx and Mitch’s Artakha are too far removed from the core tropes. They’re too anthromorphized. Helryx has hair, for instance, even though no Toa has hair. The design doesn’t quite fit her characterization either. Helryx has mismatched horns, even though a serious, no nonsense character like her would likely have them fixed.

I’m somewhere in the middle on this debate.

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I’d be down to doing this. It seems like a fun way for people to build characters that they wanted to for the contests.

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sounds interesting

what is this ghidonicle™️ and where do I get it?

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Isn’t “core tropes” just another way of saying “the aesthetic that I like”?

Sure, there are canon limitations to how a character looks.

But looking like mass-produced toys of a certain complexity and price point was LEGO’s limitation, not ours, and not a part of canon.

No reason why such an ancient / significant character couldn’t have acquired extra clothing / adornments like a hair-like headdress. In-universe there are fabrics, pouches, capes, scarves etc. Using them can make a build / the lore richer IMO.

Worrying minutely about their appearance seems like the sort of thing a no-nonsense character wouldn’t do, unless it impacted their goals. Helryx is canonically “frail”, which she hasn’t had fixed, for example.

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