Should Stone stay in G3?

I don't know if TTV's made up their mind about this, but I feel that the presence of Stone as a separate element from Earth is something which should go. Before you just say "no," please hear me out.

I know that Earth is defined in G1 as just soil and dirt (which is kinda lame when compared to things like fire and rocks, but I'll put that aside for now), but the thing is, Toa of Earth, by necessity of being cool and working with their thematic element (pun actually not intended for once), must be able to create earthquakes. This was a thing in G1, and it's obligatory for any other adaptations. However, let's consider what earthquakes actually are: movement of tectonic plates, which just so happen to be made of rock. But if Toa of Earth can cause earthquakes, which entails controlling rock to a degree, then what separates them from Toa of Stone?

This argument is not rooted in advanced science, as we're dealing with a fantasy franchise wherein the laws of physics must not have any relegation. This argument is based on the fact that one type of thing is made out of the same type of stuff as another thing, leaving the only difference between these two elements being...location? It's one thing when it's like Ice and Water, which are in different states of matter and have different properties and applications. However, we're just talking about hitting people with rocks in different ways; not stabbing people with water versus throwing them around with liquid. Pohatu, therefore, is just redundant to Onua in terms of powers.

I know that there are arguments for keeping Stone. The one I've heard most is that Stone is cool as a thematic power. This is true, but it doesn't have to go away, just be used by another type of user. Stone just doesn't really add anything when Earth could--and should--possess the attributes of that element. Or vice versa, but when dealing with elemental powers, most works just use "earth" and not "stone."

Another argument that I've heard is that, like Lewa's change to a Toa of "JUHNGOLE," it would be a pointless shift from that which is already established. However, Lewa's change added nothing. It didn't make more sense on a thematic level, it didn't fit his character better, it just sort of happened. That's why it was a bad change. If Stone and Earth merge, and Pohatu gets a new element, then that enables the character roster to have more thematic components without losing any, while at least some logical headaches of the elemental roster are done with entirely.

Lastly, I've heard that the elements don't really need to make sense, or that overlap between them does not really have any detrimental effects. Here's the thing, though: if the elements are not clearly defined as being different types of material, then why classify them into elements and not just magic? "Elements" entails distinction between the objects manipulated by the user. If two beings with different elemental powers are controlling the same stuff in different places, but can only control that stuff when it's in their relegated place, what's the difference?

As for what should replace it, I'd personally choose Iron, but maybe you guys have a better idea. That's really my thoughts on the subject, and not a definite answer. There are probably other arguments for keeping Stone, and if there are any which justify its existence, then do put them forth.

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I won't get too in-depth regarding the rest of your post for the moment, since it'd be better discussed in a group setting, but I will address this.

I highly disagree regarding it "adding nothing." Jungle makes way more sense for Lewa's color scheme and environment. When people think air, green is not usually the color that comes to mind. It's either bright blue or a bright grey. So for Lewa, you either need to change his element or his color. And since Le-Koro/Wahi/Okoto Reigon is jungle, it only makes sense for the green Toa that resides there to control plant-life. Visually and thematically, it makes way more sense than air.

As far as the rest is concerned, like I said, I won't touch on it now. Just the one disagreement thus far. Otherwise, interesting argument. Keep 'em coming.

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I'm not keen on getting into an argument over this because it's off-topic, but I do want to address it. You're generally right in this statement, and I do suppose that the guy with the Miru is best suited to speak on Lewa-related matters; but there's a couple reasons why I disagree that the change fits Lewa more.

Firstly, color is not really a hugely important factor in Toa design regarding what element gets what color. I say this because black is assigned to Earth, which most would associate with brown; and brown is assigned to Stone, which would be associated with grey more often. So green, even though it wouldn't fit Air more than other colors and could also go to Plantlife, doesn't really fail to work with the element to which it is given; especially since, if Plantlife is added to the lore, the G1 scheme of blue-and-green works fine.

Secondly, Le-Koro works as a setting for Air not for being in a forest, but for its elevation. Being in the treetops puts you closer to the sky and, thus, makes more sense for an Air-centric group of Matoran. It's for this same reason that it makes sense for Le-Matoran to be the ones to tame those giant birds--birds fly around, and thereby are to Air what fish are to Water. They live and move about in the stuff.

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Well, yeah, that's a "real" earthquake. But you can always create a pseudo-earthquake by moving the thick layer of dirt erratically.

This reminds me of a discussion about Death Note. One of the key parts of Death Note is the default method of killing that the notebook uses: a "heart attack". However, an actual heart attack does not operate the same way as the Death Note portrays it -- it's simply called a "heart attack" because of similar results.

As far as the whole air/jungle thing goes: I don't like Jungle as an element because it isn't an "element", in the traditional sense. The four "elements" that are a centerpiece to almost everything elemental are fire, air, water, and earth. Ice and stone are variants of those -- ice is the opposite of fire, and earth got split into rock and dirt.

Also, think about this: Toa of Jungle can create, manipulate, and destroy life. Sure, it's just plant life, but that should not be in a Toa's powerset.

~W12~

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If stone were to be replaced I like the idea of it being Iron, however I think it would work better as just general metals. Although the issue this brings up is how could those abilities be used in interesting ways, without seeming like the exact same thing as stone just with a different name. Also, would they have control over metalloids as well, or no?

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I agree with you for the most part, but not with this specifically. When I think wind, I always thought of green, and I know I'm not alone in this.

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Except that's not how it's described. BioSector01 describes them simply as "earthquakes." It's not the name of an attack which Onua shouts at the top of his lungs whenever he uses it, it's the thing that he's causing. If it weren't an earthquake, then it wouldn't be described as one.

Bionicle's elements aren't taken from those of classical alchemy; they're their own thing. 'Sides, even if they were from ancient historical concepts, why is the European take on the concept more valid than the Chinese one, which accounts for wood?

Plants don't think. They don't feel. They're effectively just objects in nature that happen to be alive by purely scientific definitions. If they could create, control, and kill sentient organisms, that would raise a lot of ethical concerns; but they cannot, and so there's not really a moral quandry.

"Iron" denotes all metal, not just actual iron. Metalloids...eh, that gets into scientific gobbledygook that doesn't really work for a fantasy-centered mythos that mostly strives for the rule of cool, so yeah, they'd be lumped in, too.

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It's described as one because it causes the same results. It's not like anyone on the surface could tell the difference. He's creating the results of an Earthquake.
You have to remember, this is a theme for kids. They simply call it an "earthquake" so that kids know what they're talking about, and we older fans understand that it's actually a pseudo-earthquake.

It's the same logic behind them calling the Matoran Alphabet a language. LEGO did that, and I hate it, but to kids, a special "language" sounds cooler than a new alphabet.

Yes, but is this an inherent correlation, or because you're a Bionicle fan? You are biased, and the fact is that most people do associate green with junglele.

~W12~

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In my opinion, I think it makes more sense for Jungle to stay as an Element and replace Stone with Air. To me it makes sense, for one thing Pohatu has the mask of Speed, which would seem far more fitting for Air than Stone. And while people can complain about the colour scheme, Air never really was Green either, which to be honest looks nicer with Jungle.

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Kids can understand the concept of making dirt move around.

True story, BTW. It's told in a way that a kid could understand.

I'm not a big fan of this solution because it's a little complicated, but it's certainly an option. Also, Air's always been assigned to green in G1. That's how it was since the line launched.

And you can do that. You can explain that he's manipulating the dirt to emulate an earthquake. But there is absolutely no reason to do so when you can say "earthquake" and everyone knows what you mean.

I think he meant that actual air isn't green (it's clear) but plants are green.

~W12~

But not everyone's going to know that's what I mean. Not everyone's going to read that and immediately know I just mean the dirt and not a literal earthquake.

I feel like, if we are keeping stone and earth separate, it's just sort of implied that the earthquake is done using earth and not stone. I think there are lot's of other legitimate issues with them being separate elements, such as stones being in earth, but the names of their abilities don't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

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What I mean is that they know what the results are -- the ground shakes violently, and all other results. Yes, it's not a real earthquake, But LEGO can and will call it that and no kid will care.

And older fans can figure out it's not a true earthquake because it's not in an Earth Power. But in the end, it makes no difference

I don't think it is because I'm a Bionicle fan. For instance, the Fire Emblem series has associated Wind with green since the beginning, and it was created in 1990, long before Bionicle.

I'm saying that, because you're a BIONICLE person, you do have a bias toward associating green with air.

And yes, air is sometimes given the color green. It can be given any color, since it's colorless. But when most people think of the color green, they think of jungle, not air.

~W12~

That's all well and good, but unless you can show me where, in G1 source material, there's strict evidence for those earthquakes not really being earthquakes, then there's not sufficient evidence by which to conclude that such is the case.

And if we just designate soil and dirt to Earth, then that's kind of lame because the "Toa of Earth" is really just a "Toa of dirt." How many people are actually going to find that cool when you get down to it? I mean, it's not like fire, or water, or wind--it's dirt. Like everyone says when pointing out the difference between Earth and Stone, "it's the difference between being hit with a rock and being hit with a clump of soil." That means there's really only a couple different ways for Toa of Earth to use their element in a fight because they can really only tear up the ground; as opposed to the other elements, of which even Fire (which can be used to burn enemies, block off their paths of movement, make them unable to hold a weapon, blind them with light, etc.) has multiple applications.

EDIT: Also, soil isn't just one type of substance. It's a composition of a boatload of minerals and organic material. Being the Toa of dirt, therefore, means controlling not one substance, but a composite mixture of many. What, then, are they actually the Toa of?

A real earthquake involves the moving of tectonic plates, which are stone.
In G1 lore, Earth Toa can't manipulate stone, no more than they can fire or water.
Ergo, they are creating fake earthquakes.

I actually agree with you on that.

I'm just arguing against the logic that "earth isn't separate because they can create Earthquakes"

I'm saying they can be split up, not that they should be.

~W12~

Well, this whole argument isn't really important to the subject, then. I feel tremendously silly at this moment in time.

Don't, it was a good discussion. Just because we agree on the main issue doesn't mean we can't debate the details.

Sure, I think they should be merged, but I wouldn't mind either they're left separate, I don't think that giving Earth earthquakes is an issue. You apparently do, however, and thus definitely prefer the merging of the elements because of that. You have a stronger argument towards merging them, while I lean towards merging but would be fine with separation.

~W12~