State of the Contests Update

LEGO BIONICLE
751

I know exactly what you’re saying, but if I could play devil’s advocate for Meso’s points for a second (not that he needs it, his response was perfectly worded):

The Bionicle fandom is naturally curious and notoriously persistent. If Meso or Eljay were to be tactful, as you say, and avoid name-dropping while also avoiding generalization, you’d end up with ambiguity.

Now, perhaps in other circumstances using the phrase “one person” or “this person” works well. Not everyone in the general public is connected enough to go looking for the answer. But the Bionicle community is, for better or worse, and many of these fan groups are openly accessible.

Saying “one person in RSG was being stubborn” could mean anybody in RSG. In that way, it’s just as dangerous as generalization. But instead of painting the entire group as negative, you’re putting a target on one person’s back. And with fan groups being as openly accessible as they are, combined with Bionicle fans being incredibly persistent, you’re opening the door for people to infiltrate and investigate, or God-forbid harass people to find out who “one person” is.

At least, that’s how I understand it. Allowing room for any sort of ambiguity allows people to draw their own conclusions, which might be incorrect.

And I want to clarify that I’m not advocating for name-dropping so that people know who to direct anger towards. As Meso said, nobody should ever take a Nak n’ Jay discussion as a call-to-action or a hit piece. But clarity in a discussion always breeds better discussion.

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752

Am I understaning you correctly man-hunting in this community is inevitable?

I’d like to bring your attention to Brother from another brick or BFAB for short. Withín a day he was branded public enemy number one in this community for making a video about convincing LEGO not to bring back Bionicle. While it wasn’t name dropping that caused the man-hunt it still happened because people knew exactly who to target and why because they were given a name, a place and the motivation to find BFAB and ostracize him for the video.

My point is that name dropping while giving a level of transparency ultimately has a greater potential for man-huning whether intentional or not. Because dropping a name or knowing a name makes the means to finding someone easier and more appealing for people to find the afforementioned person. (see the BFAB example)

Looking someone up without anything to go by instantly becomes too much of a burden for the average youtube watcher to care. Because if finding a person on a trading card ARG with nothing to go on but a picture took 13 years and a reddit community to solve, trying to locate one random person on the internet with even less to go on certainly would be an Herculean task.

Because if you want to find a person like that person who works at walmart it will take you way longer than if you had to find “Person Personson” who works at walmart and for most finding an unamed person based on a name of a group/company is often way more effort than most viewers want to put into a rando on the internet.

Now I don’t believe that what Meso said didn’t have merit to it but I do believe that people look for the path of least resistance and giving a name surely makes the resistance less than letting the person in question be annonymous.

EDIT: Imma drop out of this argument now, I’ve said what I wanted to say

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753

You know, I’ll concede to that. Again, I was simply playing devil’s advocate, but perhaps it wasn’t thoroughly thought through.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that I see the merits of Meso’s points. But again, ultimately, the issue is people taking those name drops as calls-to-action to go harass other people.

Which…

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It is. And I’m tired of pretending it’s not.

That is the sad reality of the Bionicle community. We want people to get more invested in the thing we love, but we attack people who dislike it and viscously correct people who say “Kopaka” wrong.

And, sadly, we attack each other.

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755

Isn’t that sadly true for every community ever once it reaches a certain scale?

Makes one wonder what a little bit more tolerance towards differing opinions with only personal consequences might do in the world.

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756

This is an incredibly true, incredibly good point, but …

The Bionicle community, the part of it that cares, at least, is really small. I know tons of communities online, huge and tiny, and very few of them have been able to match the absolute ferocity of this one, and I don’t mean that in a good way.

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757

I would like to apologize for my initial response to this issue. I didn’t know the context behind this situation and am glad to hear that nobody was intentionally targeting anyone maliciously. I was quite confused with why you and Eljay had mentioned their names but this definitely clears things up, so thanks for the response. Like Hazash pointed out, this response was made in a polite and respectful matter, and I wholeheartedly respect it.

With that being said, I think that episode wasn’t the only time where something similar occurred however. If I can remember correctly, there was an episode (don’t ask me which one; I’ve forgotten) where I believe it was Eljay that had mentioned somebody by name and either criticized their bickering about the contests or maybe it had something to do with a users’ builds that Eljay had laughed or had poked fun at (again; can’t remember which issue it was). I’m not saying that you or Eljay are trying to cause trouble, because I believe you have good intentions regardless, but it’s just something I thought maybe that could be shared to perhaps be weary or cautious of.

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758

Okay, it’s been a while since I’ve been a part of all this, let’s see if I can avoid sticking my foot in my mouth too much…

  • First of all, I owe a very very very belated apology. I was one of the many individuals involved in the arguments over Hoseryx. I was against Hoseryx for a variety of reasons, and still am, but the point is that I got far far too heated over it and contributed to the firestorm of vitriol and nonsense that surrounded that issue. I should have backed off, and it was only after the contest was resolved that I did so. I’m sorry for my role in things, however large or small it may have been in the grand scheme of things.

  • Because of the Helryx fiasco, I didn’t pay any attention to the Artakha Contest, and unrelated personal issues and whatnot have also kept me from doing more than the bare minimum of following the Hagah contest until now. At the same time, though, I have been slowly working on a moc for the Lariska contest, which I plan to enter when/if that occurs. Point is, I am still invested in the contests but haven’t been around for the more recent dramas around them, so my biases and experiences are probably going to be different from most, so take what I’m saying with a grain of salt. At the same time, hopefully my distanced perspective on things can help a bit?

  • I have very mixed feelings on the contests as a whole. There seems to be two primary stated purposes to it here, which are to shore up gaps in canon, (which I personally don’t hate but also somewhat disagree with the spirit of; I could write a whole essay on that particular contradiction but it’s there) and to try to create a positive event to bring the community together again. (Which so far… has not gone well, by most measures) Given my feelings on the first and how the second has gone, in theory I should be opposed to the contests continuing, but I am not. And again, plan to enter the next one.

  • My main reasoning? The Helryx contest was a mess, yes. The Artakha one had some issues but mostly went well, but from the sounds of it was straining on Eljay, Meso, and Kini. (To which extent for each is… not my business or my place to say, but the point is that that was a thing, but hopefully something that can be mitigated in the future by this new approach.) And this current contest has gone poorly, arguably on a similar level as the Helryx debacle, albeit in a lower-key but more of a protracted way as opposed to the brief but incredibly fierce flare-up during the final week of MOC voting. However, as others have pointed out, this particular contest is a bit of an odd duck compared to most, since it is technically four contests in one, and for better or worse has a much more restrictive set of rules than the previous ones did or future ones are going to have. It just seems like a recipe for trouble, so I’m not entirely surprised that trouble is what’s occurred.

  • So despite many valid reasons to expect history to repeat itself, I do think the Hagah contest’s outlier status should be taken into account. Based off of the relative success of the Artakha contest, and the refinements to the more “standard” rules that came about from what missteps were made, I also feel like there’s enough positive precedent to expect that future contests could go better.

  • By the same token, there is going to be some degree of controversy for the contest for each character, because of the wide variety of different expectations and ideals associated with each character. This very thread has brought up a point I expect to be a source of conflict in the Lariska contest, the issue of catgirl-ness. (I know my own entry is probably not going to be popular with some for similar reasons…) But I think the key is whether or not the community will be able to have these differences of opinion in a calm and mature manner. We did it, more or less, with Artakha. Until proven otherwise, I am hoping we can do it with Lariska. Being prepared for some degree of drama is going to be a necessity, unfortunately, given the community’s present track-record. Still, I think it’s worth hoping that that that drama won’t reach a similarly wearying level next time.

  • Now since Lariska is the only one I plan on entering at the moment, take what I say next with some salt as well, since this may be my comparative lack of investment with the rest talking… but I do think it’s relevant to ask ourselves how long the contests should continue. How much can TTV and any assistants they bring on deal with, and how much will they have to deal with in future contests? If I’m wrong and the Hagah’s weird structure isn’t the issue, and the Big Catgirl Debate™ becomes yet another controversy on par with Hoseryx, then yeah, maybe Lariska should be the last one. If I’m right, and it seems like there’s an optimistic future for these to continue, it’s still worth asking how far they should continue after that, how much would be giving people the opportunity to bring their ideal of Marendar or the GSB to the table, (given people talking about buying pieces in preparation for those, I don’t think it should be discounted.) and how much would be senselessly mining the deeplore after the ore has run dry?

  • But at the same time, that’s a “cross that bridge when we get to it” sort of question. For the moment, I think the best path forward is to limp to the finish line here, give TTV time to rest and recover, and then attempt the Lariska contest and hope that it can be like a more refined version of Artakha’s success rather than a repeat of this one or Hoseryx. Based on how that goes either way, discussion can and should be had on whether or not it is worth it to continue. But by the same token, I feel like it’s premature to argue those points for or against right now, while we’re still in the thick of it with this contest, and still only have two data points to work off of that aren’t muddied by other factors like this one is.

  • TLDR: I was part of the problem during the Hoseryx debacle, but I have learned my lessons from it. I can only hope that the same applies to most of the community here, and that we can conduct ourselves better going forward. There’s a cost-benefit analysis to be made over the contests continuing, but the Hagah contest is an unusual case and should be treated as such compared to Helryx and Artakha. Arguing circles over whether or not to stick to them while we’re in the midst of one and have another more “standard” one on the way is premature. Every incident so far has been a learning experience; we should take the Lariska contest as a test of sorts to see if we have learned from it or not.

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759

Should mention that the next one is Tuyet

As for catgirl Lariska I can say already with confidence that it has great potential of becoming something meme worthy and is definately “Every polls a goal” material. While I at the moment don’t think that people can’t imagine Lariska as a catgirl, I just want to warn people that catgirl Lariska unchecked has the same meme potential as Hoseryx and metallic pink thunder thighs Pouks.

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760

Let me introduce to my secret weapon. I like to call it, Rule 11.

11. We reserve the right to disqualify, at any time, any entry that we have reason to believe has been entered in bad faith or in an attempt to disrupt the voting process, or any entry we have reason to believe may disrupt the voting process.

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761

I definitely agree that it has the potential to be a meme, but I think the key there would be in defining the thin line between “obvious troll entry designed to rile people up” like Hoseryx and “MOC with genuine effort put in that happens to have features not everyone would like” and sticking to that line.

Also, I thought Tuyet was reserved for later down the line? Did this get changed while I was gone, or was I just mistaken?

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762

okay maybe but like I already made it. it does look more over the top than I was hoping for so when I set out to make it I will maybe modify things a bit so it does not become that kind of thing and just is a lariska moc that kind of looks like a cat but not too a dumb degree

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763

yes but how do you determine that a cat inspired moc was made as a joke? that’s what I’m concerned about,

Edit:

I think that got changed to have tuyet before Lariska

Ok, cool I guess

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764

or any entry we have reason to believe may disrupt the voting process.

But on another note, I deeply echo this sentiment. All the toxicity in each contest has, in retrospect, been at least somewhat predictable. And all things considered, Artakha went really well, as would have Helryx if the admins had predicted the Hoseryx debacle.

I think if we get through Lariska, and it’s just as toxic, I might be inclined to at least consider the anti-contest opinion, but I feel like not giving it another shot is really not a logical decision.

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765

Personally, I don’t feel like Hoseryx is comparable to those other examples.

I feel like “meme entries” can still be legitimate, so long as they can still work without the context of the meme. If you strip away the “haha funny” aspect of Catgirl Lariska or Pink Pouks (the latter of which I still believe is legitimately good), you still have potential for good, solid models/designs that fit within the Bionicle universe. Hoseryx, not so much.

For a future example, I’ve seen some people kicking around the idea of a Good-Guy inspired Marendar. Would it be an inside joke? Absolutely. Would people vote for it based on that? For sure. But as long as it is also good on its own merits (design, construction, colour scheme, etc.), I don’t see why it shouldn’t be a viable candidate.

Yeah, some stuff got shuffled around after Helryx.

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766

Seconding this ^

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767

Should have emphasised the Thunder thigh aspect of it, sorry for not making that clearer, I agree pink pouks is fine

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768

Speak for yourself. I still would vote for a thunder thighs moc completely unironically. XD

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769

Like I said… Lariska as a cat-person makes a startling amount of sense. As animal motifs go… cat is one of the best, considering that cats are small, agile, slight, and come with their own built-in knives.

It’s just things like weebs that cause people to be leery of the idea. It could potentially rile people up, in, uh, more ways than one. However, IIRC there’s more than one feline Lariska kicking about, and plenty of other ones that are bound to hit the same buttons as the darker side of catgirl responses that can probably slip around the “No Titillation MOCs” rule (along with a few that will definitely get hammered by said rule). I doubt ColdGold’s will be uniquely disruptive to the voting process.

Also, speaking as someone who has seen the WIPs… it’s really good. Like, honestly, genuinely, it’s a really good model and divorcing myself of the stigma that cat-people have gotten due to things like animu (which isn’t hard for me, I’m more in the region of “Okay but a human person with the chaos gremlin energy of a housecat would be bloody hilarious”), makes it something I could genuinely see as the canon depiction of the character, and I would be quite okay with accepting that.

Yes, it has a Vahki skull as the core of its head, but we’ve seen that on TSO’s species, mutant Toa, Steltian Bruisers, mutant Steltian Nobles, mutant Matoran (Phantom counts, shut up!), Vengeance’s species, mutant cow-people, and mutant-whatever-the-hell-Tracker-is. It’s not exclusive to Vortixx, and with the other details of the Xian design banned due to the No-Titillation MOCs Rule, there’s more than enough to differentiate her from a Vortixx.

I think if ColdGold’s MOC gets a lot of votes, it’ll be because it’s just a good MOC, not because it’s being brigaded because Hee Hoo Catgirl.

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770

that’s a bit of a light term for the c to the a to the t, if you know what I mean. For my comfort, I’d prefer you use more accurate terms - demon, devil, and fiend are the go-tos, but tear-bringer, causer of eye itching, or simply abomination would also suffice.

Thank you for your sensitivity.

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771

Maybe its just me who isn’t sold on the concept but I think there is enough people to go Hee Hoo Catgirl and vote for it. I feel like Hoseryx really showed the power of meme voters and yee I don’t want to relieve the Helryx contest again

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