Not to be that guy, but to add to the reasons why this artwork should by all reasons be disqualified (and to remind staff should they read this far down, as things have slipped in the past): all four eye colors for the new Hagah have been changed from their models, which constitutes a large enough change that it’s been asked to be remedied at least once before that I’m aware of. Had the artist not reverted the eyes to the colors of the MOCs, the entry wouldn’t of been accepted.
It’s good art, and I truly do appreciate the thought put into it, especially in regards to Bomonga. Unfortunately, good intentions don’t mitigate the fact that you willfully broke major rules to make this. They’re there for a reason, and they can’t be broken because you feel like it. Should this piece slip through the cracks and be accepted into the first round of voting, that’s a failing of the staff, not a success of the artwork.
I think the same can be said of the original Bomonga contest. The winning entry shouldn’t have been accepted, but it was. Regarding the eyes, I’m pretty sure some later entries had changed the eye colors, and the depiction in comics are generally inconsistent as well. I changed my eyes toward the end of my process when I saw that other entries had done so. Also my entry is pretty plainly meant to evoke the comics through the linework, text, and bordering, which generally have small artistic differences from the sets (eg. Toa Metru chest pieces and Hagah eyes). I think in general for all art entries, some artistic differences should be allowed because portrayals of the Toa do change across mediums.
Addressing earlier concerns about some coloration on Norik, I do have reflected highlights and accents from both armor and body since their bodies are metal. Actually that’s present on all of the entries. Look all the shadows on the shields and some green reflections on Iruini’s gray pieces. But Norik’s body is in fact **BLACK and Bomonga’s large fingers are gray. Any thing that I did not already list above in the post was not intentionally altered from the models.
Addressing the Bomonga shoulder armor points, when I started I was under the impression one of the early entries used Mantax shoulder armor pieces. Looking back I think I was wrong, but if any art should be allowed to stretch some rules then I think the Bomonga one makes sense.
I don’t like the hate this piece is getting. I think the composition of this art piece is pretty sick and I love the reference made in it. You’ve explained the artistic liberties you took with the piece and certain characters which really gives context on what you were trying to achieve for it. I think it’s super important that you submitted a 3:3 entry where Kualus is silver, especially since I had no idea how difficult it would be to get painted pieces. I really want to build a full set of Hagah but now I don’t think I could if it needs to be painted. Honestly I think the changes are pretty minor except for Bomonga. But you are right pointing out that particular contest was broken. Also other submissions took stylistic creative liberties as well so the rules for acceptance in a submission should be more flexible. Anyways I think this art piece is really well made and will have my vote if it’s accepted (which it should).
Two entries already have been asked to change the eye colour and scarf color. And the changes to Bomonga are drastic. Entries in both the previous contests have been disqualified for massive alterations to the winning moc.
Sorry, that’s a typo. I meant to write black. I missed filling the black on the top because of the red chest piece, but if you look at the armor without the silver, it’s easier to see that it was black-tinted red.
Definitely a very nice piece of art, but I will say this: the attitude of “I should be allowed to do whatever I see fit because others have gotten away with things too” is not a good stance to take in any situation. Just my two cents.
But I think you are misconstruing what I’m trying to do here. I think it’s important to point out the inequities that have been allowed in the past that have lead up to this. It’s no secret the Hagah contests were controversial, and I am really trying to offer a middleground with my art piece to all the concerns that have been raised before and during the contest.
But it’s not easy when the comments I receive are highlighting “it should be disqualified because of rules” when that has failed in the past. And the bigger concerns that I raise in my entry post are getting ignored. What about accessibility? The people who clearly want to build a full team? What about uniformity? But also creativity of the original MOCs? At least with titan Bomonga his build is still essentially the same but just a titan.
And what about the clear bias in polls before the contest? Specifically the poll about how should the contests be run? Ie. as is, staggered, or as a team? When two of the three options were meant to address uniformity but were ignored for the leading third option to run the contest as is, that’s a clear example of a split vote. When those other two polls are aggregated, it is clear the majority cared about uniformity.
I enjoy these contests, but I think we should be better about pointing out some uncomfortable truths in how things have panned so far. We’re now in a situation where people can either (a) no longer build the teams when literally hundreds of people wanted to, or (b) people must buy a ton of customized parts that will clearly start at least in $150 or more (for custom parts alone, not factoring shipping) depending on how many armor colors get approved.
I think we need to reflect on how we got here and ask ourselves how we as a community are making it “easy” for people to join in on the fun and results. I’d argue that the first and second contests went fairly well because we were lucky in getting purist builds. But the number of custom pieces from this one as a whole really should be a concern, and eliminating it ignores the bigger problems around accessibility.
You are correct, certain entries have been allowed in the past that should have been disqualified, things slipped by, rules not necessarily clear on what constitutes major changes. Case in point: Bomonga. The Bomonga moc shouldn’t have won, because it did violate the rules. There are entries that change things like limb colour, removing lenses, etc., and so far none of them have been asked to change. Pouks’ chestplate toes the line, but it’s not been specifically required either.
However, there are two problems with this entry that have been requested on other entries: the eye colour, and scarf color. So far, no entry has been accepted that changes those things.
You point out that the Bomonga contest had an unfair win. I don’t disagree. But wouldn’t it be just as unfair, then, to allow an entry with issues other entries were asked to fix?
At this point, I want to address that yes, saying it should be disqualified does sound harsh. So I’ll clarify: if the scarf and eyes were the only issues, then I would say the admins should follow the policy of “give a few days to change it”. Should be simple recolors, easy to fix.
What’s not so easy to fix, though, is Bomonga. So let’s address three things here. Firstly, while no entry has been asked to change Bomonga’s limbs specifically, there have been entries in the previous art contests that have been disqualified for major deviations from the moc. I would say that this art deviates too drastically, for the regular Bomonga at least. Thus, it wouldn’t be right to allow it when similar entries have been DQ’d.
(Also, regarding the titan Bomonga: I personally feel that for a group shot contest, the Bomonga with the team should be the one that’s “correct” and has the proper build)
Second: yeah, the Bomonga moc should’ve been disqualified. But it won, because… People did vote for it. Clearly, the majority of people wanted this Bomonga. In fact, if the moc had had a proper shield and a proper height comparison, no on would have any issue with it winning. So yeah, a majority of people wanted uniformity, but a majority also wanted this Bomonga moc.
Third: we’re it up to me, I wouldn’t just say “the moc is disqualified because it alters Bomonga”. I would at least offer a few days grace period to redraw the regular-size Bomonga (and recolour the eyes and scarf). Unfortunately, I don’t think that can be done in the typical 3-day grace period, but I would at least offer it. Despite the harsh veneer I may seem to have, I really don’t like to see entries get disqualified (unless they’re troll entries, but I’m sure yours isn’t)
Well, full disclosure: I don’t care about replicability, as I was never going to build the Hagah anyway. But you are correct, many people want a Toa Hagah team they can build and display.
On the other hand, many people also voted for the Bomonga moc, knowing full well that it would require five Metru torsos and a custom mask. And Also knowing full well that it would be drastically different from the other 5, as no other custom builds were in the finals. I might not like it, but that’s what a majority said Bomonga should look like.
The same can be said for Pouks’ chest, though all the Pouks finalists were going to be hard to replicate anyway…
Also, I’m one of the people who wants a 3:3 split. Partly because I think it looks best that way, but also because it’s inevitably going to be easier to replicate. I might never intend to build the Hagah, but I also know there are people that do.
Sorry for a really long post, I wanted to be fully clear about why people take issue here. And to be clear that I don’t hate your entry. I do think it shouldn’t be allowed as it is, and if it’s not able to be fixed within a few days, then it would unfortunately have to be disqualified. I don’t like saying that it should be disqualified, but the rules should be enforced.
And one final thing: if your entry had a proper Bomonga and fixed the colour issues, I wouldn’t mind if it won. The art is great, I love the titan battle in the background, and as I said, I really want a 3:3 split. It’s not my top pick – I personally prefer a 3:3 split with silver Pouks, and there’s two entries I can recall that have that – but it would certainly be among my top choices, probably top 3.
So I agree with you that it would be unfair to other artists if I were allowed to submit an entry that did not change the same things that have been explicitly asked for other artists. At the time, I knew that there were some posts asking the staff to reconsider their stances on the eye colors after they extended the deadline, and I did not see that ask on Luhan’s excellent artwork so I thought it was change in stance. But I don’t really mind changing it as you say. Regarding the scarf color, I did not know that it was a hard requirement because it’s technically not armor nor is it part of his body. But I am also fine with changing it for equity.
Regarding the Bomonga changes, I think I could change the titan in the background to the model that won. I just don’t think it would be as big as an actual 2005 Titan set. I think I could do it in that time, but I might need a weekend. But before I do that, I would like more dialogue with the staff, especially when their rationale came down to “it should have been disqualified but people voted for it.” Why can’t we do that here? It’s not like my reasons or concerns are unsubstantiated. Previous polls had to be restarted due to flaws in the process, and the only proper thing to do in this case would have been to do the same. In my opinion, it’s not OK to say that you messed up but not offer any remediation. In my opinion, allowing some flexibility on his model’s MOC would be an appropriate response, but I can see them being open to big/small Bomonga but mandating at least one of them be the same. In any case, the explanation regarding the differences between Great/Noble mask powers could still apply.
But just to be clear, I still think the small MOC should be canonized because, as of now, bricklink has only >>65<< black metru torsos for sale, and that number will get destroyed by just >>13<< people trying to order parts for Bomonga as he is now. To further complicate matters, some parts also don’t ship to where people live. That is plainly ridiculous, because there will absolutely be more people than that trying to build him. The Lego Bionicle reddit community is 40k strong. I strongly feel this is a bad idea for builders. I think artistic changes in consideration of supply/demand should be seen as valid reasons because those are inherently made with the greater community in mind.
And finally, as an aside, I disagree with the assessment that more people wanted the big Bomonga MOC over the second place MOC. The difference was about 13 votes according to the ranked voting system, and after seeing the responses I am getting here, I am convinced that number would have changed had it been made more explicit that the rules were broken. So I agree with toatapu77’s assessment that the Bomonga contest was “broken.” It’s not like people didn’t point it out, but the mods were silent on the matter, and so I think there’s a pretty clear disparity in responses that I’m getting here versus how the winning Bomonga’s MOC was received when it comes to rules.
That was the point of the first round, not the second round.
It’s a little more complicated than that. It also has to do with the fact that the rule being broken was borderline irrelevant and had a bunch of gray area for this specific entry because of the unique design of the MOC, and the MOC still stayed within the “spirit” of the rule; a redo of the entire vote wasn’t worth the trouble.
The rule you are talking about breaking, on the other hand, is literally the primary rule of the Art Contest: draw the winning MOC.
One thing to keep in mind is that the broken rule had nothing to do with the use of extra torso parts. The broken rule that people are discussing is the fact that the entry photo for the winning entry may not have been holding the shield “in the hand” as specified by the rules.
It seems like a massive stretch to say “I’m going to change the most defining aspect of the winning model because I don’t think people would have liked it if his shield was attached differently”.
Also:
Most, if not all, of the responses here are telling you to keep the original limb design. Doesn’t that mean that people actually liked it?
I’ve always been under the impression that the studs were there to represent his eyes and make them fill out the eye-holes better, not to actually be part of the mask.
I’m trying to point out how close the Bomonga first round was for the first and second model. It was pretty even.
I haven’t followed the comments to a T, but I thought people were debating everything. Some people thought the limbs were actually hands + the hordika necks were limbs and so the shield was technically attached, and others thought that the spirit of the rules implied that no metru torsos could be used as limbs. Others pointed out the number of torsos needed was going to bottleneck supply. It did all come down to the limbs themselves being controversial, and so I think it’s a bit disingenuous to say that it was about the shield itself even if that was TTV’s official stance.
And so to this point, I did include the titan Bomonga which was meant to serve that role. I only changed it a bit to accentuate the idea of a titan-set, but I am happy to change it back to the original. The idea of small/big Bomonga going through growth changes is not only my idea, and it would suggest that all in-between sizes can be considered canon including the original MOC.
So this is a good point, because even I like it to an extent. On a Toa, maybe not. It looks great as a MOC, but it’s admittedly out of place. On a titan? Absolutely.
But to counter, I think Racie02 said they didn’t like the result, but it is what it is. Others have only argued against my entry out of principle. So I think it’s more complicated than that too. I took it to be more that “the rules were being broken” than “I prefer the original.” I think it would have helped had people been more explicit with that because the current vibes I’m getting are that it should simply be disqualified for the sake of rules. But in any case, I think the rules should be more flexible given the circumstances.
I think I just need to wait it out for the verdict from the staff at this point. I can make changes. I just want a discussion on what changes are consistent for everyone else, and it would be good if we could be open to the problems with part accessibility and supply.
I’m not saying that the shield was the only issue brought up, but it’s the only one that actually matters for your point, since you’re arguing for a rule-break on the grounds that it was done before. The rules that other people think the original entry broke don’t matter. TTV makes those decisions, not the fans, and TTV’s decision is that the torsos were fine and the only rule-break was the shield.
Comparing the severity of perceived infractions with the severity of your actual infraction isn’t a fair comparison. You can’t say “other people thought it broke major rules, therefore TTV must knowingly let me break major rules”.
So I get your points if you want to qualify against the severity of rule infractions. But how I see it is that if a rule was broken, then a rule was broken, and if we want a hardline approach then we should have enforced it that way from the beginning. TTV should have clarified when these concerns were being brought up immediately, but they did not until the end, which by definition influenced the results when it should have been disqualified. I don’t know how productive it is to argue how much the results would have been affected had they been open with the rule being broken, but for any polls it’s important to point out bias where there is one. The best option would have been to restart as is (and has been) done in many controversial situations. I think we understand the points we’re both making, but our axioms and values are different so we are coming to different conclusions.
And to reiterate, I wasn’t trying to flout the rules entirely. I was just, admittedly, stretching them as I stated before. That’s why titan Bomonga is in there. I think it just comes down to whether small/big Bomonga is OK or not, and I can make the changes there.
Yes! I think they should feel like those builds are accurate and are not something they have to settle for. I think the spirit of inclusivity should validate those builds in addition to the very unique MOC we got. That’s what I wanted to do with my entry.
Whether or not this follows the rules, I enjoy the illustration. Having Bomonga in there twice is a bit odd, and the scale is a bit trippy since it looks like Background Bomonga is supposed to be big, but we know Roodaka isn’t that big. It’s definitely cool, though. The posing of the foreground folks is admittedly a bit strange, especially for Gaaki, who’s just kind of jumping the opposite way from everyone else. Even so, the overall idea is neat.
Thank you so much for entering! Unfortunately, we’ve detected multiple issues regarding adherence to the contest rules. We apologize for the relative delay in notifying you, but, as others have pointed out, there were many stylistic modifications made here that needed to be taken into consideration. Ultimately, some of these creative choices are allowed under the current stylization rules, but there are still changes that need to be made before this entry can be accepted:
Bomonga
Bomonga’s eye colour has been changed from the winning model. Please change the eyes to match the colour on the winning model.
The overall shape of Bomonga’s shoulders has been significantly modified. Please alter the shoulders to be more consistent with the winning model.
Two different versions of Bomonga have been submitted, one of which has significantly modified the shape and proportion of Bomonga’s limbs (in addition to the changes mentioned above). Please modify the two versions to be more consistent with each other, as well as with the winning model.
The larger version of Bomonga has added armour in what is believed to be an attempt to modify, rather than stylize, the winning MOC. This is most notable in the shoulders (as mentioned above), thighs, and crotch. Please ensure that the winning MOC is accurately depicted in your artwork.
Kualus
Kualus’s scarf has been repurposed, changing the function of the article entirely. Additionally, it has been changed to be green. Please change both the position and colour of the scarf to be more consistent with the original model.
Kualus’s eye colour has been altered from the original model. Please change the eyes to green to match the original model.
Pouks
Pouks’s eye colour has been altered from the original model. Please change the eyes to blue to match the original model.
Pouks’s chest armour is missing the fins from the winning model. Please add this feature of his armour.
Gaaki
No issues found.
If you could make these changes within the next seven days, your entry will be good to go to the polls. If you have any questions regarding the nature of the changes being requested, please don’t hesitate to ask.
