This feels like a stretch to me, but I’ll leave it to TTV if they think this is convincing enough. I don’t feel so passionate about this that this is the hill I’m going to die on, lol.
I think the Tryna’s a bit bug-eyed to fit the Hagah aesthetic either way.
I’m like 99.9% sure this goes outside the boundaries of these contests. Besides, I can easily see someone using it as a cheap way of going “Kualus’ mask is shaped like the Mask of Emulation, Pouks’ mask is shaped like the Mask of Growth, Bomonga’s mask is shaped like the Mask of Clairvoyance, and Gaaki’s is shaped like the Mask of Rahi Control.” Sure, nothing probably contradicts that, but IMO it’s lame and falls into the same “sideline canonization” area that the Staff of Artakha did for Artakha’s contest.
EDIT: Also, to address your other points: 1- Personally I think they should be symmetrical, although I find it highly unlikely they’d make it a rule you have to; 2- Painted pieces are allowed in these contests, and afaik there aren’t pieces you’re not allowed to paint; and 4- I assume you mean in the art portion? In the which case, I vaguely recall Meso(?) bringing this point up in one of the early Nak & Jays when these contests hadn’t even begun yet, although I don’t think they ever made a decision on it. Personally I think it’d be cool if someone did that.
EDIT 2: So I was reading the rules to see if I could address these points any better, and: to point 2, there is no mention of restricting piece painting so long as it is not a unique piece with a printing on it (which the Hagah shields wouldn’t count as); and to point 4, Rule 5a does say that they “accept any style,” although for anyone reading this, I’d wait until Meso or Eljay officially say something in this regard.
Also, I’ve got a question of my own now. Rule 4 as it exists now says “A minimum of two (2) images must be provided. One of the mask, containing the front, side, and top view, and one of the winning MOC wearing it.” Now, does the mask portion apply only to new Kanohi? It seems redundant to do this if artwork wins with an existing Kanohi, like, say, Kualus artwork wins of him wearing an Arthron.
I mean, if a Toa having to wear an immoral mask is say a one in a million chance, that means within the 10,000 years it probably happened at least 3-4 times. And judging off of how we know that masks break, mutations occur, and sadistic entities would definitely replace a user’s mask, and the various non-Toa species capable of being heroes, I think theres higher odds of a hero (even non Toa) But thats the last I’ll say about that
I’m now imagining that say, Gaaki has the shape of the Tryna, and people constantly come up to her and say:
“Oh my Mata Nui, how could you call yourself a moral Toa and wear such a horrible mask!”
And she’d sigh and go:
“Look, it’s a long story…”
I will say you’ve made me more open to the idea, I just mostly think it would make the canon even more confusing than it already is, but I could live with it.
I think the even bigger thing is “How could you serve Teridax??”
The nature of Hagah is already very deviated from a normal Toa
I mean, to be fair most beings probably knew that the Makuta were once considered good. But, this is getting a tad off topic now. At this point I’m just procrastinating studying for my finals. Yay quantum statistical mechanics!
I should get back to that.
That sounds like you almost rounded back to providing justification of why things were perhaps not as severely looked down upon in older ages.
But yeah, I have Neurological anatomy and conditions to study for. Good luck with yours!
All you silly children doing your “studying” and “bettering your education” to “have a success future employment” and “not be a loser like Ghid”, kids these days.
The question of mask morality really becomes sketchy when you realize that every canon Makuta appears to have worn an immoral mask. Are the masks immoral because the Makuta wore them? Is that why Repulsion is immoral, but mind control and charisma aren’t?
In that case, the Toa Hagah absolutely could have worn a Makuta’s mask because the Makuta likely hadn’t even begun to betray the universe publicly at that point. Ergo, masks based off concepts for non-mutated or Brotherhood versions of masks should be allowed, IMO.
It’s all a question of when masks became immoral, one I’m not really sure I want Greg answering if I’m being totally honest. I’m happier proposing the concept to him rather than asking the question and hoping he reaches the same conclusion on his own.
I see no reason why we would do that.
Paint can be removed safely without damaging the piece. Nothing needs to be altered here.
They’re more than welcome to suggest what power it should correspond to. It will not be passed on to Greg for canonization because we are not canonizing new mask powers. This is about visual content. So they may suggest it, but we will ignore it.
…First of all, why?
Secondly, I guess that’s fine? As long as that’s during the art portion and not the MOC portion.
We’re still discussing this aspect, but my current stance is just immoral masks being disallowed, not specifically Makuta masks. I have not been given a convincing argument to allow immoral masks on Toa.
I put some reasons above. I know we’ve had this discussion before but it seems to me you just personally don’t want that. And I am trying to make a case for it, but I actually have no intention of even using those masks in the mocs I submit. My reasonings are entirely supposed to be conjecture based off of just how incomplete the Bionicle history is. Its equally valid as it is invalid simply due to how much we lack, in my opinion. Bionicle’s story has lots of moments of overcoming a circumstance set in the grey
I know you have given reasons, as you have before. I did not say I haven’t been given an argument, just that it wasn’t convincing. Canonically, there is nothing to suggest they would have worn immoral masks. They’re still Toa.
To add on to Eljay’s (And I guess to reinforce Ghid’s) point, It’s not that there’s no conceivable reason a Toa might wear an Immoral mask - Those masks that are Immoral due to their attribution with Makuta should be perfectly valid for use because the Hagah were formed before the Makuta went evil.
That said, all the Immoral masks we have (Off the top of my head) are also shapeshifted and thus should be ineligible for use.
And we have incomplete information of when exactly the precedent was set, if the masks that were deemed immoral happened all at once, whether or not the mask was chosen for symbolic reasons outside of its power alone (as in relation to whomever it was honoring deeming more prevalence in the circumstance), whether or not due to the fact that the power of that visage of the mask being inaccessible effects that decision, whether or not honoring a non Toa hero would impact this decision, etc.
We have many characters that arguably good who have done worse than wear a mask that are still considered to be good in the story. Forcing such black and white onto the story is doing somewhat of an injustice to how complex the world can be.
Yeah the current one’s we have probably not, but perhaps 3D printed ones would work?
Again, I’ve got no intention of using these masks. I’m really just trying to have this point in defense of those who may want to, and to speak for what I feel like could encompass the true depth the story could offer us if we had more.
Also, not really my call. If they’ve been called immoral by Greg or a character in the story, that’s that.
Again, I’m not arguing for the barring of Kanohi that are associated with Makuta, just ones that Toa consider are immoral. They’re slightly different lists.
My only point to that was I don’t think(?) we have a timeframe on when that was decided? That could go either way, but the Toa Code wasn’t completed overnight and evolved with it in its earlier stages. If its decided that the answer is ‘nah’ then so be it, I just want to try and give it a fair banter is all
At the end of the day, the way things are is we have Greg saying “Toa consider these masks to be immoral,” and that usually (not always) is because of their power. We also have other masks that Toa “would not wear” because of their association with the Makuta. On the flip side, we have nothing to suggest a time frame, just the possibility that one exists. Fact vs. guesstimation.
We still need to discuss it, but I don’t believe it is appropriate to allow their inclusion at all, in either art or MOC, due to the specific nature of the Hagah.
With that being said, could we even allow creative freedom on the appearance of any of the other Toa (not referring to the Hagah) down the line? We have nothing to suggest that they’d have a unique or different body type or design/increased complexity outside of the standard body types we have in story. Would it be fair to allow that level of freedom?
I would think the answer to be yes we should allow that level of freedom, simply because thats something we don’t know. I’ve only been adamant about the Hagah due to the precedent of the previous ones we do have, but I don’t feel like we have that for some of those Toa down the queue.
Not all who die go to the Red Star
It actually only subtly changes someone’s perception, requiring lots of baby steps to be used to convince anyone who is completely morally set against you. That aside, persuasion is better than murder, isn’t it?
I agree wholeheartedly with the Komau being okay and the Crast being disallowed (the Crast’s reason is dumb anyway. “Repels nature”? What about the Garai? Are Le-Metru hoverbikes immoral?), but for all we know the Komau isn’t supposed to be used on sapient beings; our only example was Onewa who was a novice Toa and never really took time to learn the rules of the trade. Likewise, the Komau cannot direct a victim against their morals.
I used to agree that the Hagah may have worn immoral-shaped Kanohi because at the time of their work, the Brotherhood had not yet rebelled, but it was brought up earlier that they never changed their masks after reverting from Rahaga, so I stand by this.
(This is what happens when I read the thread backward)
The Tryna, Masks of Scavenging, Aging, Incomprehension, Undeath, and most obviously the Kraahkan are unchanged, immoral Kanohi we’ve seen in lore. Heck, it’s entirely possible one of the Hagah could’ve worn a Kraahkan-shaped mask. They did serve Teridax directly.
All future Toa canon contests, and more than likely all the rest of them, will be muuuuuch easier to do, because we’ve already figured out the execution of these contests, and they won’t have the hyper-specific constraints of the Hagah. So going further, unless we’re shown something to the contrary, we shouldn’t have any torso restriction.
And this is, to me, the main thing I’m trying to figure out. If it’s just this one contest where this is a story specification, why are people trying so desperately to argue against it, and hence the whole goal of a canon contest? This is the only one, as opposed to the roughly 9 other contests where this won’t be an issue or point of contention.
I wanted to step in and bring this up: The Makuta did not officially go “evil” until roughly around the time the Toa Hagah betrayed them to begin with, at least not openly. Therefore, I’d argue it’s perfectly reasonable for any Toa Hagah to use a mask design based on an “immoral” mask design, ala Norik’s noble Kiril turned into a Pehkui.
I personally would love to see this be the case as there no doubt might have been a heroic Makuta from the past (before they went all shadow, anyway), and the Hagah did serve the Brotherhood.
And this is where we differ. Being that they DID serve the Makuta, and were actively serving when they were transformed by Roodaka, they wouldn’t have had time to change their mask before openly abandoning their post, as it were. It’s quite logical, and it does open up new designs for everybody to consider.