I just pray that we don’t have someone argue to make the Gold Skinned Being part silver when we get there in 2023
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But the Makuta turning evil isn’t what makes those masks immoral. It’s the powers. BS01 makes a written distinction (per the cited quotes) between a mask power being immoral and Toa not wanting to use masks because of their association with Makuta. I’m not arguing the latter being barred, only the former which Toa wouldn’t be wearing anyway.
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Alright, so I guess by THAT definition, the only ones on the table would be the Shelek and Felnas. Interestingly enough, that does mean the Mask of Mutation is still on the board (check its trivia 
).
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With the exception of the Felnas and the Shelek, all Makuta Kanohi are immoral because of their power.
Also on this topic:
Say that, hypothetically, the winning Kualus entry wears a custom standard Felnas that is clearly based on the Gorast model: would this similarity be enough to canonize Kualus as wearing a Felnas-shaped mask, or would we technically have to recognize it as an “unknown Kanohi”?
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Correct.
The only modification we know of that Gorast made to her mask is the addition of a stinger. Granted, that is lacking a citation on BS01. So if any Toa was wearing a Felnas, the stinger would not be accurate.
If it were a modified Felnas that differed greatly from the set model, that’s an entirely other matter that we haven’t discussed.
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Yeah, this is more what I was talking about. Something like this:
Since Gorast’s mask was also shapeshifted and mutated.
(EDIT: Apparently not. BS01 specifies that both Krika and Bitil’s Kanohi were shapeshifted, but does not explicitly specify either way for Gorast’s (aside from the stinger). However, it does state that the stinger was the result of her mutation. So is the standard Felnas actually just Gorast’s mask with the stinger chopped off, or is this a copy error on BS01’s part?)
Obviously the rule still needs to be in place for the Shelek, though this could also go the other way as well; someone could use a custom variant of a known standard mask, à la Lhikan’s Hau.
This topic is very similar to the discussion about when to disallow an entry for using the Mask of Emulation on Pouks. If a custom mask can be disqualified for being too similar to the canon Mask of Emulation, it doesn’t make sense to dismiss any intentional similarities between a custom mask and the official piece it is based off of.
(Also, side note: I feel like Galva’s Shelek would look really good on Bomonga)
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I mean this is pretty much a fact considering that the Makuta that were killed during Teridax’s uprising/takeover were killed for disagreeing with him so were probably heroic to some extent.
we know that the Makuta weren’t evil, to begin with and that Krika and Miserix to a lesser extent were heroic.
so I think allowing masks that were only immoral because a Makuta wore them is fine because of the reasons above and the aforementioned fact that the Makuta only went evil during/after the Hagah’s tenure as their bodyguards ergo after they had their masks given to them.
however I think masks that are considered immoral due to their powers is a bit of a grey area since you could argue that they could have worn a mask with immoral powers and just say its a different power but you could also argue that the Toa wouldn’t honor someone wearing an immoral mask.
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His point was that is just a metru torso with extra steps.
I was never here,
Edit: Also I’ll add these here, since we don’t have any concreate rules nor do I have the time to just rebuild and rerender these every 5 second the current changes direction in this topic. Its a me problem but its not easy being a university student. However because of this I wanted my Hagah done before the contest, now take that as you may, but I’m literally just posting these to have them taken apart so I can make unwanted final changes to them:
Edit 2: I can also see the metallic colored Gaaki having sir Danjus metallic color unfortunately that doesn’t exist in stud.io to my knowledge
This whole debate over immoral masks seems pointless to me. I’m with Eljay on this one. If you need this much justification just to use a certain mask, maybe you’re better off simply not using it.
Anyhoo, since we’re on the topic of masks, I’d like to bring back something I mentioned a few months ago (I don’t remember if it was in this topic or somewhere lese, this whole discussion over Hagah contest has been going on for so long it’s hard to keep track of):
There’s still plenty of canon masks without any name or associated power. They are listed under the “Unknown Kanohi” section at BS01. I think this contest could be a good opportunity to use these masks as the Kanohi of Toa Hagah (not saying that these masks are the actual Mask of Rahi Control, Mask of Clairvoyance etc., just the shapes the Hagah chose for their Kanohi). In my opinion that would please those who don’t want to see “familiar” masks on Toa Hagah, while still complying with canon. Of course I’m not saying that the Hagah are required to have these masks, it’s more of a suggestion for the contestants.
Also, since the topic of consistency between Toa Hagah was discussed some time ago, I would propose that every contestant should submit all 4 remaining Toa Hagah as one entry. That way we could secure the consistent and cohesive look of the entire team.
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These Toa should have unique mask designs because it is their contest, not “Toa Hagah and original Makuta masks contest”. Let’s not derail it.
A small question, can we call it metru build even if we shorten or lengthen their shoulders? It’s not too much, just one stud
ex) there is my Gaaki test MOC.
Add: must we hold their shields in their hands?
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We won’t mandate a strict “all four Toa” rule since some people may want to focus on specific Toa and not all of them. I would hope individuals that are seeking cohesion would research which characters were made by which MOCists, which will be easy to do as the entry topics will be linked in the polls.
Their contest involves picking their mask designs, which could be nearly anything. It’s very open to interpretation because of the unique nature of the Hagah. There is a lot of room for choice.
We won’t institute a rule mandating the shield in their hand, but they must have the shield on either their back or being held.
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agh, my plan fell, that’s to mount shield on their shoulders ㄴ_ㄴ
Yes, and the Necromancer subclass abilities are just -so- much cooler.
Darn. I was thinking having it attached to their forearm.
Well, Eljay’s provided some pretty solid reasoning for his side of the argument, not gonna lie. I don’t really agree with him, and I’m not at all happy that we can’t use designs based off of non-mutated/transformed concepts for Makuta masks, but he’s been right with a lot of his information.
Plus, the immoral mask hill is not one worth dying on IMO when the ability to make brand new designs exists at all.
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And also when there aren’t a whole lot of immoral masks in the first place.
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Alright, let’s address every mask under contention:
Shelek
could a moc be wearing a Shelek?
YES.
Does it matter?
NO.
Why?
Because we don’t know what a normal Shelek looks like, it would officially be a new mask shape with an unknown power.
Felnas
Could a Hagah wear a Felnas?
YES
Does it matter?
MAYBE
Since it’s possible that the stinger is the only part that’s nonstandard, if a moc wore a Felnas and the art edited out the stinger, that could be considered officially as a Felnas.
Mask of Mutation
Could a Hagah be wearing a Mask of Mutation?
YES.
Does it matter?
NO.
Why?
The only mask of Mutation we have was shapeshifted to fit a dragon. Again, it would be a new mask shape with no official power.
Jutlin, Crast, Avsa, Mohtrek
Could a Hagah wear these?
MAYBE. Unlikely, but maybe.
Does it matter?
NO
Again, they’re all mutated. Could someone make, for example, a Crast without the back extension and say it’s an unmutated Crast? Maybe, but that’s pushing it.
Edit: apparently the jutlin is confirmed to just have added teeth, so it’s actually as viable as the Felnas.
Tryna, Mask of aging, mask of undeath, mask of scavenging, mask of Incomprehension
Could a Hagah be wearing these?
MAYBE. Unlikely, but Maybe.
Does it matter?
YES.
We know what they look like, arguably the Tryna would lack the tube connector, but otherwise, these are standard.
mask of fear, mask of Reconstitution
Could a Hagah be wearing these?
MAYBE. Unlikely, but maybe.
Does it matter?
NO
Why?
Because we have no idea how they look, so we’re back to new masks of unknown power.
In conclusion, the only ones that matter are the Tryna, the comic masks, and maybe the Felnas and Jutlin.
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Since it wasn’t mentioned in the podcast and hasn’t got much attention here as far as I can tell, I want to see what people think are the pros and cons of running the Hagah contests simultaneously, rather than one by one.
Coming from a position of wanting the Hagah to be as consistent as possible, I’m personally concerned about the outcome of running them simultaneously. Statistically, it’s quite likely that we will get one or more Toa sticking out, or otherwise not following a pattern established by the others. Examples of two extremes I want to make sure we definitely don’t get are:
I think running them one at a time will make it easier for people to design and vote for designs which fit best with the lineup as it grows, thus reducing the risk and severity of inconsistencies.
The counter-argument to this is “Why don’t we make a final group shot art contest? Then the artists can correct the inconsistencies.” While helpful, I think this is a less ideal option, for reasons which I’ve explained prior:
If you run the contests one by one, but then have the final group art contest, the extent to which the artists will need to correct inconsistencies will hopefully be lessened, and the original designers and fans of the original design will be less likely to protest. Additionally, sequential contests and a group contest put together will be more effective at pruning out inconsistencies than just the group contest.
The way I would suggest running sequential contests is no different to how the other contests ran. You’d let people post (but not officially submit) any Hagah at any time before that Hagah’s contest begins. Once that Hagah’s contest begins, that’s when people officially submit. This gives them time to modify their design if they want to improve consistency with the winning Hagah from prior contests.
I anticipate this requiring more work from moderators (work which I think is worth it). However the less labor-intensive alternative to this is to have the entry periods run simultaneously but the voting periods run sequentially. That way, voters can tactically swap their preferences with the knowledge of which one fits the team best. As I’m writing this, I begin to wonder whether this is what TTV had in mind anyway. I’d say it’s pretty much a no-brainer in terms of workload vs. payoff.
One addition to the above option: it would be useful to allow designers to withdraw and resubmit their submissions if they choose. This gives them another opportunity to rectify inconsistencies between their design and the established lineup.
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The problem with this line of thinking is that it makes it impossible to disallow any Masks of Emulation, since the entrant could just claim it’s a new shape that happens to look similar to the Mask of Emulation.
There has to be some room for TTV to say “that’s clearly a Mask of Emulation”, and that same freedom can also be used to say “that’s clearly a Shelek”.
This claim makes the assumption that the results of each contest are independent of the others, which isn’t true. It’s going to be more or less the exact same people voting in all four contests. In fact, by holding them simultaneously, you get far more consistent turnout for each contest, as well as making sure that voters are approaching all four with the same mindset, rather than changing their mind in the weeks between contests.
If consistency really is that much of a concern, though, I’ll bring back an idea I proposed a few days ago: at some point in the voting round, make the votes public part way through the voting rounds so that people can adjust some of their votes to better match some of the frontrunners.
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Also art only severely reduced how many people can participate, and thats not ideal either.
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