Toa Hagah Canon Contest Ruleset Feedback

[Mesonak]

@pack

And, since I’m just in time for another lovely Meso mega-post, I must say that these changes to rulings are absolutely excellent. While I haven’t been following affairs as closely as some others among us, I think I speak for many when I say that the updates and addendums to rules giving us specifics on certain very hot topics is massively appreciated.

Thanks! If anything I’m sorry all my posts end up being so massive and wordy, my own inability to be concise is coupled with my only being able to reply late at night and also my need to play 4D chess and anticipate as many potential variables as possible to create these Frankenstein mega posts, lol. If it all works out positively it’ll be worth it

[TheJerminator]

@Mesonak

I’d be curious to hear peoples’ thoughts on this.

I’ll take any new lore I can get. If everyone involved is okay with expanding the contests/doing a sub-contest, I’m all for it. (Though it’s not that big of a deal, and I won’t complain if you decide not to)

[Toa-of-Snow]

@Mesonak

“ The best compromise I can think of would be to allow it, but only to recolour parts to colours that exist within Lego’s palette - or further - are already present elsewhere on the moc. ”

Specifically, for us, it would be the latter point. Parts can only be edited to match an official LEGO shade that already exists on the model. I stress that point because that’s the extent of the compromise; there has to be exact parity to official LEGO shades when it comes to these photoshopped colors. What that means to anybody who’s reading this is that this standard , as shared by iBunny, is what you will need to reach to have this be allowed . This level of parity with the existing LEGO shade featured on the MoC must be achieved; any less than this, any obvious disparity in shade, and the MoC will be given 3 days to make adequate changes or face disqualification.

I personally have no inherent issue with this, as long as the restriction on official-Lego-colours-only applies singularly to photoshop/image editing. I don’t want to see it creep over too far - an art piece, for example, should be able to be whatever colour it wants. I don’t actually know if painting pieces is something allowed to infringe this palette or not (because I don’t tend to paint pieces myself) but I wouldn’t want to see that rule change one way or the other as a result of allowing photoshop in Lego-only palette.

Also, regarding canonizing masks, I’m pretty indifferent. I don’t care if a new mask design gets added and doesn’t have a known power, but I’m also not opposed to a contest for them either, and would happily participate in such a contest. I’m completely cool with either outcome.

[Wolk]

@Mesonak

I’d be curious to hear peoples’ thoughts on this.

I’d like to do this, but it gets complicated with edge-case Kanohi powers:

• Things like ‘Weather Control’ or ‘Fear’, I’d like to run those by Greg first to see if they should be considered here. Naturally immoral powers become irrelevant here but nonetheless. For context these are really no different from the Mask of Healing: (1)
  Full list of those:

– Fear: needs clarification on if it is immoral. The quote also implies other emotion-based masks are possible, like Anger, Courage & Peace. (1)
– Density Control: gets kind of close to Intangibility, which may need clarification. (1) (The Mask of Intangibility did exist at the time, as well. (2) )
– Weather Control: (1) (2) (3)
– Laser/Heat Vision: needs to be clarified if intended as two seperate masks or as one and the same. (1)
– Poison: immoral. (1)
– Stasis Fields: (1)

• Weaken vs. Jutlin, verify if they’re seperate or the same, and if the former, if Weaken is immoral, because there are contradictary quotes on this. (1) (2)
• Mind Scrambling, per the Ask Greg topic I posted recently.
• Reconstitution I would like to ask Greg to reconsider if it’d actually be immoral (as currently stated), with the context that Mutation is not. (1) (2)

All of these could probably be verified in a side-ask to Greg, and then we’d know better what Kanohi powers do (hypothetically) exist in our knowledge.

It’s also worth taking into consideration if the masks represented with the Hagah would be Great or Noble masks.

I’d also like to determine the mask powers of Orde and Zaria beforehand, but same complications. Alt. it can be done afterwards if they end up with new masks.

[ToaKebaka]

@Mesonak

For the sake of saving yourself typing time, probably best to just wait until the topic goes live. We’re going to make it go live whenever we hear back from Greg on the matters we’ve emailed him about so we can have a “Update AND final topic of discussion” kind of roundtable.

Understood

@Mesonak

Honestly speaking, I’d love to. Maybe not as a PART of this contest, but shortly after it, in close proximity to it, or in parallel to other contests. Problem is, I don’t know if a lot of people would be interested in seeing that, if Greg would be interested in canonizing those, or what kind of process would even be involved in figuring out those powers. Quite frankly, it’s a bit outside of my depth, and our current infrastructure really only allows for stuff like visual appearances. I’d be curious to hear peoples’ thoughts on this.

I would most certainly want to see something like that - it is always good to have new mask powers. I don’t think it would be that difficult to organize either, for each such item, a proposal could be made by people and voting would occur.
If something like this would be a prospect for the near future, I would extend this idea in the light of current contest, that is potentially deciding the abilities of Hagah spears and Rhotuka. I know there are people (including myself) who have been discussing and brainstorming this in anticipation of Hagah contests.
Like you said, maybe after the visuals are finalized and Greg would be ok with it, we could have a quick idea contest for this…

@Wolk while making some clarifications is good, I want people to get creative with this, not rely on an existing pool of redundant ideas.

@Mesonak

Finally, on the dying of pieces:

What is the difference between painted and dyed pieces?

[b6i6o6]

Yes, Hydraxon’s faceplate is allowed. I was not sure how I felt about that at first. On one hand, I wanted to use it because there are only a very limited number of official LEGO silver mask parts. On the other hand however, I thought it should be banned because it is not a Kanohi. So I made extensive research to see if the canon would allow a Kanohi to be shaped in the likeness of Hydraxon’s face. Turns out it is possible. I have written a whole post about it if you’re interested: Could Hydraxon's face piece be a mask? - #21 by b6i6o6

[Wolk]

@ToaKebaka

@Wolk while making some clarifications is good, I want people to get creative with this, not rely on an existing pool of redundant ideas.

Why would we make new powers when we have a large pool of powers of which we don’t know the shapes for? (And also, besides the Density Control which I adressed, how are they redundant?)

For perspective, we have all of these, when it comes to great (and far more when it comes to nobles):

1. Healing
2. Freeze
3. Reconstitution
4. Increase Weight
5. Intangibility (Obv. this one would come with Tuyet)
6. Mutation (since Miserix is shapeshifted)
7. Clairvoyance
8. Growth
9. Diminishment
10. Rahi Control
11. Regeneration (Kiril) - We only have the Noble for it.
    +those other (at least 8) masks I mentioned
    +the 6 Makuta masks from 2008
    +13 Elemental Masks

[CalamitousT]

Certainly I think it’d be worth leaving Kanohi-specific contests until after character contests that involve yet-to-be-visualised masks (Tuyet, Dume, possibly TYQ Toa, etc).

That comes from a personal preference of filling in existing holes before creating Moar Stuffs.

[Dag]

@Wolk

Weaken vs. Jutlin, verify if they’re seperate or the same, and if the former, if Weaken is immoral, because there are contradictary quotes on this. (1) (2)

This seems a bit off topic for the Hagah, so I want to keep this brief, but I’m all for asking Greg to confirm these. The only thing I’m hesitant on is the Jutlin. I’m sure you’re aware of what I’ve wrote here which shows that Weaken and the Jutlin are ultimately different, and having them be the same (if Greg does choose to go that route) could cause problems. If this were asked to Greg, all this information should be present with it.

[ToaKebaka]

Well first off, the point of the question was to give powers to new unknown shapes, not giving shapes to unknown-shaped powers.
It is the matter of “Hey, there is a new Kanohi Mask. Let’s come up with a power for it!”
What you are implying is narrowing the scope of all this just to fill up a list.
Of course there could be some overlap in this and some new shapes may become the already existing powers, if there will be some consensus over it.
But saying any new shape can only be one these poers is unreasonable.

Additionally, the powers you listed will either be decided in the upcomming contests (Intangibility, probably Great Kiril in 2nd list of chracters), or cannot be used here in Hagah (Clairvoyance, Growth, Rahi Control) - maybe later down the line, yes, but not here.
The others are just extreme edge-cases of either masks which we already have shape for, and you are only asking for another shape (all Makuta masks+they are immoral for most of the characters on the list), or purely hypothetical masks, which are only canon to the point of Greg saying “I cannot rule out their existence” (Increase weight, freeze weather control, fear, elemental masks, etc.)

What we were actually discussing - coming up with powers for new masks - also results in greater variety.

And it’s not like I wouldn’t want to know what masks you mentioned look like, but we can have an art/3d modelling contest for that in the future as a part of Canon visulization contests.

[Wolk]

@ToaKebaka

Well first off, the point of the question was to give powers to new unknown shapes, not giving shapes to unknown-shaped powers.

I don’t mean to speak for him, but Planet didn’t say new powers, he only said powers?

@ToaKebaka

or cannot be used here in Hagah (Clairvoyance, Growth, Rahi Control) - maybe later down the line, yes, but not here.

This isn’t entirely true - Gaaki for instance can have a MoGrowth-shape.

@ToaKebaka

which are only canon to the point of Greg saying “I cannot rule out their existence” (Increase weight, freeze weather control, fear, elemental masks, etc.)

So was the Mask of Healing before being assigned to a Toa Mangai many years later.
As for Incease Weight, Freeze, etc. those powers do DEFINITELY exist for Kanohi, by extention of that the Kanoka exist. That is how Kanoka work, and how they have always worked. If one exists, the other exists by extention. The only uncertainty is if any was ever forged.

@ToaKebaka

And it’s not like I wouldn’t want to know what masks you mentioned look like, but we can have an art/3d modelling contest for that in the future as a part of Canon visulization contests.

But why not now? And why rule them out from being able to be used for the Hagah, or Orde/Zaria?

@CalamitousT

That comes from a personal preference of filling in existing holes before creating Moar Stuffs.

I definitely agree with this point. To be clear though, I’m not 100% against allowing for new powers, I’d just rather not expand the list of powers with even more trivial masks that we know barely anything about.

@Sharnak

Because of this, I feel the distinction between new masks vs variant masks is important, as I feel the intent of the mocist/artist should be honored as well. For variant masks, an entry with say as standard Shelek would need to be represented as a Shelek, but the artist will still have creative freedom to reinterpret what a normal Shelek would be.

Definitely agree with this as well.

[Sharnak]

I’ve been thinking about custom masks, and I believe they can be separated into two categories that may potentially require different rulesets: New Masks, designs with no precedent in canon. vs Variant Masks, forms of existing Kanohi we know exist but have never seen before. A Great Kiril, noble version, nonorganic Inika masks, unshapeshifted Kanohi, etc. .

I say this for the artwork portion of the contest, and how masks may be changed. Unlike other entries, the Hagah are essentially clone sets of each other, with only a small window of variation, making the choice of Kanohi as important as the choice of chest armor, even potentially making someone vote for one entry over another.

Because of this, I feel the distinction between new masks vs variant masks is important, as I feel the intent of the mocist/artist should be honored as well. For variant masks, an entry with say as standard Shelek would need to be represented as a Shelek, but the artist will still have creative freedom to reinterpret what a normal Shelek would be.

As for New Maks, I’m not 100% sure, but it would have to either keep the design or allow the artists to go ham with it. Though given the precedent already set, I’ll imagine TTV will go for the later.

Thank you for reading my long post that is a thinly veiled attempt to hide the fact that I want a Sanok bearing Pouks let me keep my sanok pouks youcan’ttakethisawayfrommettv

[CMO]

@Mesonak

Honestly speaking, I’d love to. Maybe not as a PART of this contest, but shortly after it, in close proximity to it, or in parallel to other contests. Problem is, I don’t know if a lot of people would be interested in seeing that, if Greg would be interested in canonizing those, or what kind of process would even be involved in figuring out those powers. Quite frankly, it’s a bit outside of my depth, and our current infrastructure really only allows for stuff like visual appearances. I’d be curious to hear peoples’ thoughts on this.

At this particular stage, I’d be against it, although if it were to happen in some form later down the road I wouldn’t necessarily cry about it. As you said, the infrastructure doesn’t really exist for it at the moment, so it’d be hard to imagine how it’d go.

I guess it could just take the form of: take the masks from BS01 that don’t have a known form, and then apply those powers in a poll for each unknown mask shape that wins. But at that point, I feel like you’d just get the Hagah wearing each others’ Kanohi (Bomonga wearing a Mask of Rahi Control, Kualus wearing a Mask of Clairvoyance, Gaaki wearing a Kiril/Mask of Emulation, and Pouks wearing a Mask of Growth), which, while not “against canon” or anything, does seem kind of… iffy/lame. Of course, this is all assuming that any custom masks win, be it in the Hagah contest or later contests. And obviously, it’s too soon to say in that regard

Also, I don’t to be too presumptuous, but I can’t imagine you guys would want to run an entire other contest/poll with its own rule sets and restrictions and stuff parallel with any of these contests (be it the Hagah or later ones).

I guess what I’m saying is: avoid more headaches now, stockpile 'em for later

@Mesonak

…So here’s the thing. I really like the concept, I do. I think your design is really cool and I have no issue with double-ended spears personally. However, I see it being easily abused. Already, I can imagine scenarios where people put like two giant Tuma swords on either end of a long spear and have them hold it in two hands. At that point, it basically becomes the equivalent of a Rahkshi staff, not a spear. As such, at this stage I don’t really see any other way to handle it except to mandate only a single spear tip rather than multiples. Your design is really cool, though! I like it, and I’m sorry about the difficulties.

Oh, no difficulties! I’m glad you were able to clarify it. As I said in my initial post, I figured it’d be DQ’d anyways (that canon purist line wasn’t meant to be sarcastic: I am absolutely purist), but I wanted to be absolutely certain about it. If nothing else, it’s good to get that clarified now, rather than if someone did it during the actual contest and their entry ended up getting DQ’d.

[ToaKebaka]

@Wolk

I don’t mean to speak for him, but Planet didn’t say new powers, he only said powers?

Well at least, I am pretty sure he and Mesonak didn’t have a pre-existing list in mind.

@Wolk

This isn’t entirely true - Gaaki for instance can have a MoGrowth-shape.

That’s fair I guess.

@Wolk

So was the Mask of Healing before being assigned to a Toa Mangai many years later.
As for Incease Weight, Freeze, etc. those powers do DEFINITELY exist for Kanohi, by extention of that the Kanoka exist. That is how Kanoka work, and how they have always worked. If one exists, the other exists by extention. The only uncertainty is if any was ever forged.

I am talking about the state of things now. And yes, those disks CAN be forged into masks, but we don’t know that they ever WERE forged. That is what I am talking about - extreme hypothetical cases. Why would those be the part of a very limited “list”, instead of simply let people be creative?

@Wolk

But why not now? And why rule them out from being able to be used for the Hagah, or Orde/Zaria?

I am not ruling them out. I said there could be overlap, just do not limit people’s ideas, in favor of filling everything in.

@Sharnak

As for New Maks, I’m not 100% sure, but it would have to either keep the design or allow the artists to go ham with it. Though given the precedent already set, I’ll imagine TTV will go for the later.

Actually, that is a point of soon to be added discussion.
But I agree a distinction between new vs variant masks is important.

[Kodiak]

Is the makooti mask allowed? I plan to paint it soon and figured it would be best to get the mask out of the way before the topic closes, just to be safe.

---

I appreciate the more recent additions to the ruleset. Regarding masks, I feel either all winning masks can be changed or none of them can be significantly modified (removing goggles, tusks, visors) without the winner’s approval. I think to do otherwise would specifically disenfranchise 3D modelers, but now both custom and existing masks are being treated equally.

For the Hagah, I have a feeling we’re not really going to get anything “new,” based on previous results and what the people seem to want for Norik and Iruini’s teammates. I get why some people are worried, but most of the problems probably aren’t going to happen, let alone matter in the long run.

[Voxovan]

@TLROsborne171

We chose a great Helryx

Did we though?

[TheJerminator]

We certainly chose a fitting Helryx.

[Pylonmadness]

Thanks granny Helryx

[Takutanuva]

I think so, from a canon perspective. Definitely not one of the roided and athletic looking ones that got a lot of votes. Would have really been a failure of the canon contest if otherwise

[KanohiReqi]

It still bugs me as to how she looks like a toa mata and yet Takanuva goes off to say how it looks nothing like he’s seen before. And I don’t want to discuss that “frail” quote again because no one listened the first 30 times.