I’ve been thinking about custom masks, and I believe they can be separated into two categories that may potentially require different rulesets: New Masks, designs with no precedent in canon. vs Variant Masks, forms of existing Kanohi we know exist but have never seen before. A Great Kiril, noble version, nonorganic Inika masks, unshapeshifted Kanohi, etc. .
I say this for the artwork portion of the contest, and how masks may be changed. Unlike other entries, the Hagah are essentially clone sets of each other, with only a small window of variation, making the choice of Kanohi as important as the choice of chest armor, even potentially making someone vote for one entry over another.
Because of this, I feel the distinction between new masks vs variant masks is important, as I feel the intent of the mocist/artist should be honored as well. For variant masks, an entry with say as standard Shelek would need to be represented as a Shelek, but the artist will still have creative freedom to reinterpret what a normal Shelek would be.
As for New Maks, I’m not 100% sure, but it would have to either keep the design or allow the artists to go ham with it. Though given the precedent already set, I’ll imagine TTV will go for the later.
Thank you for reading my long post that is a thinly veiled attempt to hide the fact that I want a Sanok bearing Pouks let me keep my sanok pouks youcan’ttakethisawayfrommettv
At this particular stage, I’d be against it, although if it were to happen in some form later down the road I wouldn’t necessarily cry about it. As you said, the infrastructure doesn’t really exist for it at the moment, so it’d be hard to imagine how it’d go.
I guess it could just take the form of: take the masks from BS01 that don’t have a known form, and then apply those powers in a poll for each unknown mask shape that wins. But at that point, I feel like you’d just get the Hagah wearing each others’ Kanohi (Bomonga wearing a Mask of Rahi Control, Kualus wearing a Mask of Clairvoyance, Gaaki wearing a Kiril/Mask of Emulation, and Pouks wearing a Mask of Growth), which, while not “against canon” or anything, does seem kind of… iffy/lame. Of course, this is all assuming that any custom masks win, be it in the Hagah contest or later contests. And obviously, it’s too soon to say in that regard
Also, I don’t to be too presumptuous, but I can’t imagine you guys would want to run an entire other contest/poll with its own rule sets and restrictions and stuff parallel with any of these contests (be it the Hagah or later ones).
I guess what I’m saying is: avoid more headaches now, stockpile 'em for later
Oh, no difficulties! I’m glad you were able to clarify it. As I said in my initial post, I figured it’d be DQ’d anyways (that canon purist line wasn’t meant to be sarcastic: I am absolutely purist), but I wanted to be absolutely certain about it. If nothing else, it’s good to get that clarified now, rather than if someone did it during the actual contest and their entry ended up getting DQ’d.
Well at least, I am pretty sure he and Mesonak didn’t have a pre-existing list in mind.
That’s fair I guess.
I am talking about the state of things now. And yes, those disks CAN be forged into masks, but we don’t know that they ever WERE forged. That is what I am talking about - extreme hypothetical cases. Why would those be the part of a very limited “list”, instead of simply let people be creative?
I am not ruling them out. I said there could be overlap, just do not limit people’s ideas, in favor of filling everything in.
Actually, that is a point of soon to be added discussion.
But I agree a distinction between new vs variant masks is important.
Is the makooti mask allowed? I plan to paint it soon and figured it would be best to get the mask out of the way before the topic closes, just to be safe.
I appreciate the more recent additions to the ruleset. Regarding masks, I feel either all winning masks can be changed or none of them can be significantly modified (removing goggles, tusks, visors) without the winner’s approval. I think to do otherwise would specifically disenfranchise 3D modelers, but now both custom and existing masks are being treated equally.
For the Hagah, I have a feeling we’re not really going to get anything “new,” based on previous results and what the people seem to want for Norik and Iruini’s teammates. I get why some people are worried, but most of the problems probably aren’t going to happen, let alone matter in the long run.
I think so, from a canon perspective. Definitely not one of the roided and athletic looking ones that got a lot of votes. Would have really been a failure of the canon contest if otherwise
It still bugs me as to how she looks like a toa mata and yet Takanuva goes off to say how it looks nothing like he’s seen before. And I don’t want to discuss that “frail” quote again because no one listened the first 30 times.
Sigh… Greg said that it mean that her armor was worn and damaged over long age like that giant robot from the cg astro boy. “Frail” can also describe her “frail” morality compared to most toa.
This is not the topic to be having this conversation. If it continues beyond this point, we’ll be handing out warnings.
I do not understand why it is so difficult for some of you to stay focused. We’re trying to get feedback so we can do this the best that we can. Could you maybe help us with that?
I haven’t read most of the discussion yet so this may have been discussed before. In any case, I am very concerned by the fact that @Mesonak’s original post and update responses make no implication or acknowledgement of whether each Hagah contest is going to be run simultaneously or sequentially. I would like clarification on where TTV stands on this, because my confidence in the Hagah contests weighs heavily on the answer.
I put my arguments forward as to how risky these contests are going to be if not run sequentially (or at least semi-sequentially) in the last feedback topic. However, I will repeat myself here:
To preface, I come from a position of wanting the Hagah to have a very high degree of visual consistency, to the extent of clone set groups such as the Piraka and Inika (the Piraka having essentially perfect consistency, the Inika having near-perfect). This, I believe, is what Lego would have done if they made all six Hagah.
My criteria for an ideal outcome for these contests:
Essential
All Hagah have different masks, or an equal distribution of masks (e.g. two have Norik’s mask, two have Iruini’s, and two have another). I don’t think I’d mind if some of them had different versions of the same mask (e.g. Noble Komau for one, Great Komau for the other).
Different spears, or equal distribution
Different chest armour, or equal distribution
Equal or near-equal distribution of metallic colours
Ideal
Equal or near-equal distribution of arm types
Equal or near-equal distribution of leg types
Equal or near-equal distribution of thigh armour types
Equal or near-equal distribution of shoulder armour types
Equal or near-equal distribution of eye colours
Equal or near-equal distribution of any other variable elements (e.g. feet)
Since some people agreed with (or at least understood) my position in the last discussion topic, and since no one outright lambasted me for feeling so strongly, I’d suspect this is a position I’m far from alone in.
The problem with running the voting periods for these contests simultaneously is that it is extraordinarily difficult to achieve consistency to such a degree. If I vote for four Hagah designs because those four in combination make for the most consistent team, the odds of all four winning will always be incredibly low. What’s practically guaranteed to happen is we’ll get one or two that fit a pattern, and one or two that break it. Someone brought up the example of three being gold and one being bright blue - now with Meso saying the group art contest wouldn’t be allowed to rectify this, there is a very clear risk of people like me becoming dissatisfied by the result of these contests.
We need to look at these contests differently to the Helryx and Artakha ones. Many of us won’t be voting for the best individual Hagah. We’ll be voting for the best team - it’s much harder to do that when you’re essentially voting blind. And if the only thing artists can do in the final ‘draw all’ contest is change masks, inconsistencies are much more likely to remain. In all likelihood, some people will look at the winning entries and wish they’d voted for different ones, because while they looked the best individually, they don’t look the best together. It doesn’t bode well for the contests if people start regretting their choices.
Say we ran the Gaaki contest, then the Pouks one, then Bomomga’s, then Kualus’. What that does is allow people to look at the entries for the current contest, put them side-to-side with the current line-up of canon Toa Hagah as it grows, and say “which one looks best with this line-up?” If someone enters a Kualus with metallic blue armour when there’s already three gold and two silver Toa Hagah, fewer people are going to vote for that Kualus, because they expect him to be silver. Sure, it’s not guaranteed to prevent an inconsistent Kualus from winning, but it’s certainly better than nothing.
I take issue with this response because while yes, having inconsistent colours doesn’t conflict with canon, we can do better than just telling people to deal with it. The fact that you acknowledged that having three gold and one bright blue Toa would look weird, and yet conceded to let that happen, worries me. If something looked weird in the Helryx or Artakha contests, voters would be able to do something to prevent that happening (i.e. by not voting for a weird-looking entry). Weirdness in the Hagah contests can (and probably will) extend beyond the sets themselves to the team as a unit. The community needs more ability to prevent the canon team from looking weird.
So, to reduce the odds of getting an inconsistent team, I would suggest:
Either: run each contest completely separately, with pauses in between. This lets voters pick the Hagah that fits the team best, but also gives MOCists and artists time to adjust their entries so they can do the same.
Or: Run the entry periods simultaneously, but the voting periods separately. Each winning Hagah is announced before the voting period for the next Hagah starts. This benefits voters but not entrants.
Consider also: Give artists in the ‘draw all’ contest more freedom to change the designs to improve consistency. E.g. they can also change the colour, chest armour or blades (but only for the purpose of better consistency). This has the potential to annoy some people, and will need to be handled carefully.
I would personally suggest doing all of the above. The more opportunities people have to correct inconsistencies, the less likely these inconsistencies will still be present in the canon designs, and the fewer people that will be disappointed.
TLDR: At minimum, the voting periods for these contests (and announcements of the winners) need to be done one at a time. For people wanting clear group cohesion, voting for one depiction of character A without knowing which depiction of B, C and D will win makes it impossible to be confident in your decision. Crucially, it makes it much more likely that the winning entries will not fit well together.
The outcome of this contest should be to get a cohesive group of Toa, not a mishmash of inconsistent but good-looking Toa. If you run the voting sequentially, voters can vote on the basis of which Toa looks best with the established line-up, reducing the odds of an inconsistent-looking team. These contests are inherently contentious to some - surely the best solution is to aim for the lowest common denominator and ensure we disappoint as few people as possible.
I agree that it would be a good idea that, if nothing else, the final rounds be staggered, probably with Gaaki and Kualus starting first.
It isn’t a perfect system, but I’m not sure one exists for this kind of scenario, and it’s still better than inadvertently voting in a group heavily skewed towards, say, gold.
This is definitely the most problematic option, IMO. The more the final art is allowed to change, the less point there is in having an initial portion to begin with.
But yeah, I’d be fine with the contests being staggered. One option you left off worth considering is overlapping them, I.e.
Entry period for Gaaki
Voting period for Gaaki and entry period for Bomonga
Voting period for Bomonga and entry period for kualus.
Voting period for kualus.
