Toa Hagah Canon Contest Ruleset Feedback

[Wolk]

@StarBreaker

I’d personally have a 50/50 split with 2 mocs using Kanohi of existing shapes and the other 2 not doing so to fit with the precedent set by Norik and Iruini.

So, I disagree with this.
It was established in 2005 that their masks were forged in shapes to honor past heroes. This wasn’t done simply for flavoring, but rather (I assume) was done to explain why Norik wears a noble-shaped Kanohi, as that’s what the set designers gave him. Whether it is a stupid reason/solution, that is irrelevant, it is the canon and well-established solution to the problem, and undermining it would leave us at square one: Why does Norik have one in a different shape but not the others? Norik cannot be the exception, he needs to be the rule.
Iruini doesn’t break this rule, he is simply honoring someone who wore a Kualsi as well. Now of course, you may ask, doesn’t this mean the other Hagah could do the same, it wouldn’t undermine anything, right? It would. For one, think of how many mask powers, known and unknown, that there are, and multiply that by at least two (for Greats and Nobles). There’s a one in (that number) chance that the mask of the being they’re honoring would wear a Great version of their same mask. That is very unlikely. For Iruini, this is fine, but for multiple Hagah, I’d simply put it like this: One’s a coincidence, two’s a trend.
Now you may ask, “couldn’t they just choose ones that have matching masks?” and this is where it really starts to undermine things. If you’re choosing to honor these heroes because of what masks they wore, then you’re not honoring them for their heroics. Additionally, it does not seem particularily much like “honoring” them if you’re set on sticking with the same shape you already had, instead you are running away from “changing yourself” in their honor.

As for the Felnas/Shelek–But this would not have been relevant when the masks were forged, and it only became relevant when they became Rahaga, at which point they no longer had the masks. (And effectively the entire time since becoming Hagah once more, they’ve been in constant wars, no time to worry about your mask shape, especially to replace it with a mask power you don’t know how to use as effectively as your own.)

[Toa-of-Snow]

OK, so I surprised myself and caught the topic nice and early this time, and I do have some serious questions, but first, I’d like to react to this:

@Mesonak

We will be moving forward with Option 3 for the Toa Hagah contests, the “Free-for-All,” as outlined in my prior document. Essentially, MoCs and artwork will compete against each other in Character-specific polls to determine the best overall representation of each Hagah, with a group art contest being held after the fact to depict all four winning designs in the same artistic style.

(Credit + Source for this amazing gif)

---

---

OK, now I’m on to the actual questions. I will say that I have no real issues with the current ruleset as-is, though some of the minor things people have picked up on could potentially improve things further. Other than some clarifications that I’m unclear on, I’d be a-ok with the contest launching like this.

That said, the clarifications:

Firstly - what are the rules on what can/can’t be changed in the “group” art at the end? That could be important. If, like, three of the winners are metallic gold/silver but one happens to be, say, pink (as a random nonspecific example ofcourse) could that be changed, or no? It’s not particularly clear on the details, and it could influence voting quite considerably so I think it’s worth making specific early.

Additionally: with masks (specifically in the art portion). Is the three perspective view necessary? By my understanding, completely original designs are disallowed, so I wouldn’t think we’d need to detail the shape of the mask (especially since that may well be subject to change in the final section anyway).

Also, what exactly counts as an existing mask design? Could I use a mask that appeared in the canon (like comics) but has no confirmed power? What about a mask design that appeared in semi-canon material? (Think “Vision Mask” from VNOG, which is currently not connected with any canon mask powers).

@Mesonak

@Markle

What about using the unavailable masks as armor pieces (i.e. using the avohkii as armor). There’s already precedent for it with Makuta using 2 of them for his hands, and since there aren’t a whole lot of flat dark gold pieces having it as an option would be helpful.

Yeah, that should be totally fine! Good question!

@Also Mesonak

(Must Not) Feature any of the following Kanohi masks:

Perhaps this section of the rules should be rewritten with more clarity? I was about to ask the same question.

@Winger

I don’t see why a shield couldn’t be mounted on the forearm. It’s just another way to modify character design without making a huge change.

Just wanted to second this point specifically, didn’t see a response to it. I’m not sure how many people would do it but it seems to make sense to me.

@Mesonak

If a winning MoC/artwork uses an existing BIONICLE mask, our idea is to mandate that being kept in the final group shot illustration. If a custom 3D printed mask wins, the artist will be given the OPTION to either redraw it as a custom one or keep it in the final group shot (as the prior contests have done).

What side of this line do canon masks without physical parts fall under? (Think AU masks like Fusion, Rebounding, the incredibly underrated Sensory Aptitude, the stuff I mentioned above [if it’s allowed], etc).

One Last Edit: Mask of Elemental Energy is fair game, right? I don’t see it listed, but it’s a mask that’s only “worn” in certain situations. I think it should be allowed.

[StarBreaker]

@Wolk

no time to worry about your mask shape, especially to replace it with a mask power you don’t know how to use as effectively as your own

For the rest of your argument, I concede your point has merit, I simply wished to express my own opinions on it. However, I feel this “lack of time” argument is quite out of place given the precedent set by many of the main characters, especially Toa, throughout Bionicle’s run (being their tendencies to swap armor and weapons like they’re average wardrobe items). While this can be explained away as “oh, that’s just because toy line”, I would counterpoint that the same argument could be used for much else in the story as a whole, and see zero issue with a Toa performing a quick mask swap or having a new one made in a random timeframe

[Wolk]

This is true; and yeah, I agree it’d be a headache if they did wear a Felnas/Shelek-shape. However I think it’s extremely unlikely that’d win, so not overly concerned.

[CalamitousT]

So I’m clear on the process, it seems like:

1. MOC & Artwork combined Poll

2. a) If MOC wins, it’s not canon, but ‘inspiration’ for Canon Group Art
   b) If Artwork wins, it’s not canon, but ‘inspiration’ for Canon Group Art

3. Canon Group Art follow-up contest

So there wont be an individual artwork follow-up contest for MOCs that win, and any individual artworks that win aren’t actually canonised? The latter seems a shame if so; although assuming they aren’t majorly modified in the group art, I guess they’ll be as-good-as for most fans.

OR

If we are having individual artwork follow-ups for winning MOCs, but those still aren’t actually canonised (and can be changed in the group artwork) then is the added delay from this extra artwork step worth it?

[b6i6o6]

I must admit I am quite happy with this ruleset. It is probably the best I could realistically hope for.

I have a very specific question though. Would Hydraxon’s helmet be valid as a mask for a Toa Hagah ? Technically, it is not a Kanohi mask so it cannot have been worn by past heroes so I guess at first sight it would be a “no”.

However, hear me out. We know it is a helmet. We do not know why it is shaped like it is. This contest offers a one of a kind opportunity to canonize the shape of Hydraxon’s helmet as being the shape of a Kanohi mask of unknown power. Simply whoever created Hydraxon’s helmet used the same shape as that Kanohi for Hydraxon’s powerless helmet. (Maybe he was honoring the same past hero ? Who knows ?) This would allow us to reclaim that mask part that has been somewhat disgraced by not being a Kanohi in lore.

[Tarkur]

@Mesonak

We will be moving forward with Option 3 for the Toa Hagah contests, the “Free-for-All,” as outlined in my prior document. Essentially, MoCs and artwork will compete against each other in Character-specific polls to determine the best overall representation of each Hagah, with a group art contest being held after the fact to depict all four winning designs in the same artistic style.

I’m not completely on board with this but you’ve seem to have made up your mind on this.

@Mesonak

Feature a spear. Cannot be substantially longer or shorter than the preexisting Hagah spears.

The other thing is I want to adress is this one. I think it could benefit from some rewording like:

“The Hagah spear must consist of a 12l axle, a 10l axle and 1 black connector. However any spear tip you can think of is allowed”

I dunno If that’s better i personally thinks so it makes the rule clearer and doesn’t limit your parts usage to rahkshi spear ends.

[CalamitousT]

@Tarkur

“The Hagah spear must consist of a 12l axle, a 10l axle and 1 black connector. However any spear tip you can think of is allowed”

One or two of the Hagah (I’m thinking mainly Boomonga) might benefit from a double-ended spear, and slightly shorter axles to compensate.

If we want to scrap that possibility, then fine - just wanted to ensure it’d been considered.

[Toa-of-Snow]

@b6i6o6

However, hear me out. We know it is a helmet. We do not know why it is shaped like it is. This contest offers a one of a kind opportunity to canonize the shape of Hydraxon’s helmet as being the shape of a Kanohi mask of unknown power. Simply whoever created Hydraxon’s helmet used the same shape as that Kanohi for Hydraxon’s powerless helmet. (Maybe he was honoring the same past hero ? Who knows ?) This would allow us to reclaim that mask part that has been somewhat disgraced by not being a Kanohi in lore.

My problem with this is that Hydraxon canonically can wear and use Kanohi, kind of suggesting that whatever the powerless thing on his face is isn’t one.

[b6i6o6]

What he wears on his face isn’t a Kanohi, that is a fact. That doesn’t mean it can’t be shaped like a Kanohi. That’s what I’d like to leverage here.

[Tarkur]

@CalamitousT

One or two of the Hagah (I’m thinking mainly Boomonga) might benefit from a double-ended spear, and slightly shorter axles to compensate.

Maybe, the original rule clearly states however that the spear has to have the exact same size as the other Hagahs spear so making Bomongas spear shorter would already be a no go if those were the final rules.

So my solution was limit the axle and connector structure so that you can at least use whatever spear tip you want because as is a nothing longer than Irunii and Noriks full spear is allowed.

[Keplers]

@Tarkur

So my solution was limit the axle and connector structure so that you can at least use whatever spear tip you want because as is a nothing longer than Irunii and Noriks full spear is allowed.

Here we find a classic example of limitations being put into place and people immediately looking for creative ways to skirt the limitations, despite never having had these ideas before the limitations existed.

[Wolk]

In regards to Hydraxon–No, it is not based off a Kanohi.

Official Greg Dialogue | Page 275

[Tarkur]

@Wolk

In regards to Hydraxon–No, it is not based off a Kanohi.

Would that limit a Hagah from using Hydraxons “mask” as tribute, tho?

@Keplers

example of limitations being put into place and people

So its wrong for anyone to build a Norik and Irunii staff but only changing the tip then? Sounds dumb but what do I really know

[Keplers]

Yes, because the Hagah masks are explicitly based off heroes’ Kanohi.

[CalamitousT]

@Keplers

Here we find a classic example of limitations being put into place and people immediately looking for creative ways to skirt the limitations, despite never having had these ideas before the limitations existed.

Except I had genuinely considered this idea for quite a while, especially for bulkier builds. Plus it wasn’t outright ruled-out in the rules, hence my mentioning it now when Tarkur explicitly brought it up.

I too was frustrated with people trying to find loopholes in every rule, please don’t misconstrue my intent.

[Wolk]

Each of the six wore a Kanohi mask forged in the shapes worn by the great heroes of the past.

Hmm, doesn’t specifically say Kanohi (though it can be inferred)… shrug

I do agree that effectively any spear tip should be allowed in addition to the axle length of Norik/Iruini. This how I interpreted “substantially longer,” – it can’t be like, a whole other axle longer, but within reason.

[Keplers]

While it doesn’t explicitly say the word “Kanohi,” every rule of English would agree that the only possible interpretation for this sentence is “[…] in the shapes [of Kanohi]”

[b6i6o6]

Oh Greg, why… Alright then. Thanks for pointing that out. Seems like the guy reeaaally wanted to prevent anyone from using that part as a mask. Great.

@Tarkur

Would that limit a Hagah from using Hydraxons “mask” as tribute, tho?

I thought about that as well but that doesn’t work because Hydraxon was part of a secret order that the Hagah only knew about when Helryx told them so they couldn’t be wearing a mask shaped like Hydraxon’s face before that.

[Wolk]

Hydraxon was originally part of the Hand of Artakha, which wasn’t as secret.