I definately want consitency but I don’t want a voting period where in the end I will know that my votes were pointless. Because a group of people can pick and chose whatever finalist they want to be represented. Ignoring the opinions of other fans entirely.
A simultaneus vote isn’t all bad, tho, it let’s us get through the Hagah quicker for one thing, whicch I’ve heard alot of people being for and it doesn’t discourage anyone from posting their visons of what their Hagah would look like despite outcome.
Pair this with Monarth suggestion and my suggestion about the final, then I think everyone has a good chance of getting their voices heard while also deliver a consitent team but what do I know?
Edit: Not a direct response to you @Hazash just my personal thoughts on this topic.
I’ll grant you that the Inika masks are larger than most other masks (though not by an outrageous extent), but the other points I don’t particularly agree with. I don’t see the fact that the Inika masks can only connect to the Inika head as a positive or a negative, it just is what it is. As for ugly, that’s pretty subjective. Personally, while the Calix and Elda are admittedly probably my least favorite of the Inika masks (and honestly I don’t think they’re that awful, maybe B or C Tier), I find that the other four masks are ace. Although, yeah, that’s also just my subjective opinion. Aesthetics are pretty hard to find an “objective” opinion on .
I don’t know why I thought getting definitive answers wouldn’t cause any more controversy.
I’d just like to point out generally that, to the people upset specifically about the mask announcements, you brought this on yourselves. You had the answers from a decade ago. But you weren’t happy with those, so you wanted Greg to get involved. And he has, and now you get your answers: they’re the same ones as a decade ago. We’ve come full circle, back where we started.
At least going by these boards, a handful of people are dissatisfied, not a community of 400+.
I don’t think that’s a great idea: 1) If you think people are upset about the Hagah, just wait until people come in complaining that they had no time to prepare for the Lariska contest because they spent all their time preparing for the Hagah contest instead. 2) People have been discussing the Hagah and their rulesets for six months now, be it here or elsewhere. Kicking the can down the road isn’t going to make them any less controversial, or get everyone on the same page.
Now, technically this was a very black and white question, and Mata blue is right in the middle; depending upon your point of view, it could count as either light blue or dark blue.
So I’ve read a lot of posts over the last day and we’ve discussed a lot of the points presented. I’ve got good news for this last round of deliberation (the entry topic will likely be going up tomorrow, so stuff is going to be locked in).
The first bit of good news is in regards to inorganic Inika masks and altered Mahri masks. Mulling it over a bit and soaking in a lot of the feedback regarding regional masks caused us to ponder our conclusion, and so we spent some time going back through Greg quotes and reading some of the stuff he said about Lhikan’s Hau, as well as discussing a lot of the points made in this topic and elsewhere. Long story short, we’re going to be allowing custom inorganic Inika masks and Mahri mask designs after all.
We went back and forth on this point, because we feel like Lhikan’s Hau represents an outlier. It’s the only described instance of a regional mask in lore, and clearly is the exception rather than the rule. People like the Voyatoran and Mahritoran using the Metru masks, etc. show that 9 times outta 10, the mask shape is shared. HOWEVER… there is enough reasonable doubt and enough possibility for additional reasonable variants to exist that we do agree with it making more sense to allow them as candidates. If Greg was able to write off the differences in Lhikan’s Hau with such ease in this quote, I’m sure he’d be just as cavalier about any differences in Inika masks. Probably not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things. Likewise with Mahri masks, by the way. Some differences in shaping could totally be viable, and while unlikely, wouldn’t present any contradiction in lore.
From a practical perspective, this has benefits too. As @ToaArcan pointed out, people are far more likely to want to paint and use inorganic variants people have made rather than the rubber masks used on the Inika, so it’s generally a boon to creativity to allow for the extra variety. Our initial move to restrict their use came when viewed from the Greg-centric outlook of the situation, viewed in context to the overall discussion about his prior answers to questions about the masks’ default shapes. The regional difference argument is pretty convincing, and doesn’t conflict with any of that at all, so we’re going to let them be used. Go nuts!
The next bit of good news (albeit less so) is on the perspective of potentially changing the contest structure to ensure Hagah uniformity. I’m sorry @Hazash, because this clearly means a lot to you, and I respect the passion by which you’re advocating for this. Ultimately, none of the solutions you’ve pitched are flawless, and none come without a potential downside that would then have to be solved and accounted for. While I’m not doubting there are others who wish for Hagah uniformity (your poll already shows there are others, when viewing the results), you’re the only person who I’ve seen vehemently argue the point throughout the multiple topics we’ve had so far. As such, I feel like most of the compromises we could make would risk opening the door to additional problems and disenfranchise other groups or other people in select circumstances. I’m not going to go through every one of your proposals and reply to them (although we did read and discuss them all), but I will highlight a few of the more convincing ones and explain why we are (or aren’t) willing to go for them.
This is a decent as it would allow for uniformity by way of manual selection and ensure the best odds of selection from a pool. However, we won’t be utilizing it because of what we feel it represents for the spirit of the contest. Say you’re a builder who puts his heart and soul into Bomonga, and you make a really great Bomonga. It’s excellent, and a very popular entrant, matching canon perfectly, excellently representing the character, using creative building techniques, the whole nine yards. You make it all the way to the finals bracket… only for your entry to potentially not even be selected because, all of a sudden, an element of judging has been introduced, as your MoC is subject to the whims of artists to choose it from a pool of six.
Sure, the odds of it being chosen in at least some art entries is pretty high if it’s such an excellent MoC, but there’s no guarantee. Moreover, there’s no guarantee the artist would represent it in as convincing a manner as you did in your entry photos and general build presentation. Maybe the technical skill just wouldn’t stand up to a better-drawn version of a different MoC, even if the design itself is superior, and it would lose because of that. Maybe the rest of the Hagah chosen, made by COMPLETELY different people, are not as appealing to people, and so Bomonga would lose because of factors outside of the MoCist/artist’s control.
Put yourself in that person’s shoes, and you’d see why that option, while best for the sake of team coherence, really isn’t great from an individual or creative standpoint. Additionally, there’s no guarantee that the final six entries in each finalists’ bracket would have a combination, between all four sets of them, that would achieve perfect team cohesion anyway. So you could change the entire system and end up disenfranchising people only for it to not achieve the intended goal. As such, while it’s a good idea, we won’t be going through with it.
This is an easy one, so I’m slotting it here. We’ll do this. I kinda like the idea of narrowing things down to the top 3 vs. the top 6 anyways, just from a competition perspective. As such, consider this one way to help mitigate things slightly.
This is another decent solution, but the issue comes, again, from respecting the creative process. We have an entire segment in the rules regarding MoCists needing to give consent for whether their mask is allowed to be changed in the group art portion or if it should be preserved. This is because numerous people brought up issues with respecting the initial creative vision of the MoCist, as people might design their creations with certain Kanohi in mind and want them to be preserved in the final group shot.
This same logic applies to metallic colors and staff choices. These are big things, large elements to design and overall aesthetic. Leaving them up to the whims of the final artist to change as they see fit could be a surefire way to alienate or displease the initial creator, who would have their creation altered beyond their initial wish, all for the goal of consistency which, while nice, is not a canon requirement. Their Hagah could be 100% appropriate for canon, meet all the criteria for our contest, and be altered just become too many of the other Hagah are gold (even though a perfect ratio of golden-armored Hagah is not a stipulation of canon. That’s really my major issue with it.
All I will say is that this one, I think, DOES have potential merit as a solution if we do end up with certain conflicts, such as identical spear tips (which could be changed a lot easier than colorization, without as much harm to the aesthetic of the model). We could potentially could use this as an option to correct things later on down the line. What I think would allow for us to best utilize this option is to add a stipulation to the “consent” requirement for the alteration of masks: two extra pieces to give consent on, that being metallic color choice and spear tip.
To explain this in simpler terms, we would essentially require this to be submitted in each entry topic:
I give consent for my mask to be altered in the final group art if the artist chooses: (Yes/No) I give consent for my metallic color choice to be altered in the final group art if the artist chooses: (Yes/No) I give consent for my spear tip to be altered in the final group art if the artist chooses: (Yes/No)
By giving the choice to the creator, it fixes the prior issue of feeling as if creators were subject to the whims of the group shot artist to make changes to their models that weren’t sanctioned or asked for. By specifying whether they’re okay with it or not, it could potentially help narrow down a listing of winners that would be okay with it (for the people who value this) and make things easier on the group shot artists if they choose to make alterations (i.e. three Toa mandate no changes, one Toa is fine with changes, suddenly it’s easy to modify).
Overall, I do sympathize with the want for a uniform team, believe me. I think that it’d be cool. Based on everything we’ve heard about the Hagah, though, there’s nothing that mandates it in canon. As such, I’m very leery about messing with a tried and true contest structure or taking away peoples abilities for creative expression to accommodate a desire that I haven’t seen too many other people express (at least not as eloquently as you’ve voiced your concerns). These compromises are about as far as we’re willing to go, and hopefully they can somewhat alleviate your concerns or, at least, pave the way for a good outcome all around.
I’m not sure how much difference it makes, but, at least for me, it’s a matter of “Well, Hazash said everything I could possibly say plus some.”
As Kazi once said “Never use two words when someone else already said 127.”
This is honestly the same compromise I have been thinking of whilst reading through the discussion today, and I’m okay with it.
I do have one question: would a moccist/artist be able to say “yes on some, no on others?” I.e. “I give consent for the armor color to be changed on my Kualus, but not my Gaaki?”
Hard disagree on this. There were several people concerned about colour distribution if nothing else. As Willess said:
Will there be a top 6 poll before the top 3, or are you saying that it’s 6 instead of 3 with no extra polling stage? As I said, if you want to proceed carefully and get the full benefit of this suggestion, you should do the former.
I’m on board with this, so long as it’s stipulated that the artists can only change these things in the interest of consistency (which is kinda what you’re saying). In any case, however, I think it’s so likely that at least one of the Hagah will have a strange or inconsistent colour that I would suggest having the ‘freedom to recolour’ rule in regardless (though people would still need to give consent for the colour to be changed).
By the same token, I would also personally suggest allowing basically anything to be potentially changed, so long as the entrant gives consent - with the rule that artists can’t change more than one or two things about the design. The full list of changeable elements would be:
Mask
Colour
Spear tip
Chest armour
Eye colour
Other armour (shoulders, thigh armour, etc.)
Other elements (e.g. feet)
Entrants would need to fill out a tick box on their post saying which of these categories they’re ok with being changed. If they don’t fill one out, assume they don’t want anything changed, but remind them in case they’ve forgotten.
This is what I want personally, to reach a good compromise, and to give everyone who feels similarly to me some modicum of power to resolve things that don’t align with their criteria for consistency. I’d rather be cautious than conservative.
I noticed you didn’t mention my second suggestion, namely people voting for their favourite team in the finals, instead of their favourite individuals. If I came to you with a way to implement this system over the weekend (which I’ve already made progress towards), is it something you’d consider?
If you ticked all the boxes yes; no one’s saying you have to.
That said…
I think this might be a bit much. I think far frewer people care/care as much about these little details. Two Hagah having the same mask? Will bug me to the end of days. Two hagah having the same chest plate? I could care less. Or even the reverse – if all of them have silver except Iruini, that’s a problem. If all of them have Mettur feet except Bomonga… eh, I don’t really care.
I was gonna ask the same question when I read that quote! It suggests that visors are not restricted to Mahri Kanohi (which makes sense when you look at the Phantoka Toa from the year after that)
EDIT: I think the rules make a lot of sense and manage to respect everyone participating in these contests, which is something of an achievement!
The idea with letting the moccist decide whether or not things can be changed in case he/she wins is good - however, I have a feeling that a moc that is allowed to be changed would be a much more popular choice in the polls, than a moc that is not, seeing how the group shot artist would have more creative freedom and a bigger influence on the canon design (both of which are obviously attractive prospects). I’m not sure, but based on this, it looks a bit to me like the only way to make sure that an entry stands a fair chance is by allowing all changes. Again, it’s just a thought, so if I missed something in my thinking process, I apologize for that, and I stand to be corrected
I would agree that if somebody says “no mask change, no colour change, and no spear change”, fewer people will vote for it. But for other elements that I suggested, I doubt most people will care. I don’t see voters preferring more lenient designs as a big issue. It just allows people that want consistency to make a more informed vote.
For me personally, it’s highly unlikely that I’ll vote for an entry that doesn’t allow these three key changes, even if it’s individually the best design presented. I’m not willing to risk getting inconsistent duplicates or black sheep and not being able to change them.
He didn’t say there weren’t, he said you were the only one we saw being so vocal about this subject. In addition, “several people” isn’t a hard number we can work with, and hence can’t kowtow to with general disregard.
This basically sums up the issue here.
As it stands, I think Meso has done well to give our final thoughts and feelings on it before things kick off:
As he mentioned, the contest will begin later today.
Thank you to everyone for your feedback. It’s taken far long than expected, but we’re optimistic for this to go well. Please help us keep it fun, civil, and as issue-less as possible.
Give me a reason why that doesn’t alleviate the issue and I’ll probably accept it as valid.
And for my own peace of mind, I will ask again what the issue is with the following, if the technicalities are properly ironed out (which I’m working on now):
The spirit of the staggered voting option was to limit inconsistency. That 25% of us voted for it suggests it’s a popular concern despite not being a majority. That’s a lot of people that could be disappointed by the outcome of the contest - far more, I’d wager, than Artakha. I don’t think it’s possible for this to be more controversial than the Helryx contest, but that’s no consolation.
Maybe some people from my camp think Meso’s suggested additions are sufficient. I don’t. But can we at least be receptive to the idea that people who haven’t seen the latest discussion might flock to complain when the contests start? Or that some unlikely event that has been taken for granted crops up and everybody complains about it?
There needs to be a degree of flexibility with the rules and a prior disclosure that things could change if complaints amass for any reason. Changes to the rules like what was done for the ‘one shade of green’ rule for Artakha must remain on the table at every stage of the contest.
Before this happens (and I apologize if this seems too nitpicky), has any thought been given to changing the “no one taller than Iruini” rule? As I’ve mentioned a few times before, it seems a little arbitrary, without any canon backing.
Might be a bit late in the game to ask, though this can apply to future contests too, but what’s the ruling on side builds? Like, if someone made a little Rahi companion for Kualus, would that be included as part of their moc entry too, or would it be ignored and only the Kualus itself counts? Again, this question goes for future contests too.
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