… if their idea of consistency involves a 3/3 colour split.
This is a good example of why the staggered voting isn’t great (this is a general example, I am not talking directly to @Winger); if the Gaaki Contest were held first, then all of the “consistency = colour balance” people would have had no problem voting for gunmetal Gaaki. But since it was held last, it no longer fits with their idea of consistency, and gunmetal Gaaki loses votes just because the Gaaki Contest was held last.
Enough to matter? I don’t know. I don’t know how many people belong to the “consistency = colour balance” group. But it’s something to consider.
Yes, I’m a firm believer in the Hagah ending up looking like the Hagah without all being identical.
Um… How is not all being gold and silver relatively inconsistent?
They would all share the same proportions, general makeup, armour placement, weaponry, shield, etc. and because the armour might not be gold or silver they’re relatively inconsistent now? Would they be more consistent if they only used the parts that come on Norik and Iruini as well, or perhaps all had identical gearboxes?
And some people have argued for that with little success. No, it does in fact take basic logic to see that Iruini is a Hagah and Maxilos is not. And everyone who voted for any option knows that.
Yeah, if Maxilos is entered, I will vote for consistency over design. However. I will not vote absurd clone-like reproduction of the sets when something visually consistent and similar to the existing Hagah both manages to be built well and adds something new - like a new armour colour - to the mix. I care about consistency, which is why even being against the mandate of the Metru torso I am fine with the rules because that’s exactly what they provide - Visual Consistency.
Not a mirror.
That’s the kicker - so many people refuse to build their mocs in a complex fashion, even those with the best models here. Who knows; maybe someone is waiting for things to kick off and reveal something stunning.
He didn’t say that because he thought it was futile to try and get at least some consistency (more than just “they have spears, they have shields, etc.”). I don’t see how quoting that counters my argument.
I’m theorycrafting to an extent. We don’t know for certain what everyone wants, because most people haven’t written their thoughts down here. But I’ll bet my widgets that most people - at least the ones who voted for staggered - read Meso’s write-up and agreed with me. If I had no context regarding the consistency discussions, or thought that staggered voting doesn’t add anything substantially useful as you do, I’d probably think simultaneous was better too, because it’s how it’s been done before. And staggered voting isn’t something that explains itself without context.
But there’s so much subtlety and difference here when compared to the prior contests that people need to know what they’re getting into by voting for simultaneous, if they don’t want things like inconsistent colouring.
But we’re not cloning them. From what I’ve read, the one thing we’ll die on a hill for is consistent colouring (and different spears, maybe). Everything else, I imagine, is mostly fair game.
I have read many comments respecting about stagger polls will make that none vote for the Toa with a different armor, but nothing assures you that. Many people prefer the creativity in the design, so they would vote for the best entry in their opinion. Other (like myself) care more about the “team look” and one important aspect would be the armor color ratio, but it won’t be my only point of evaluation. It won’t be like oh, isn’t golden, next. The armor color will have an impact in the vote, but it won’t be the only point voters consider.
If your Toa result to be the last and your entry have a different armor color of what you think most people will vote, well, suck to be you. But if we make all the polls at once, then people who care more about team look don’t have any medium to know which are going to be their best options to vote. Nothing asures that with stagger polls we will end up with a “consisten” or balanced team with equal armor ratio, but it’d be the voters decition, no blind voting. Stagger polls won’t proibite some armor colors for the future entries, so you still can upload your original MOC.
An about the order, just make it random, so everyone has equal chance of having their Toa first. Unbiased, unprejudiced, fair.
Okay, so like
This is a thing that has been bothering me throughout this topic
People (not just you, i mean everyone) tend to use the word “consistency” when they really mean “balance”.
Five gold and one silver would be consistent, but not balanced.
all different mettalic colors would be balanced, but inconsistent.
This is kinda just semantics, but it’s been bugging me so I figured I’d point it out.
All I care about is that the Hagah are internally consistent. Ultimately, the comparisons to the Inika and whether Gold Kualus and Gaaki look like Light and Psionics respectively are irrelevant.
As for metallic armor color, I’m going to repeat what I’ve said before about Gaaki, that TTV should make it a rule to have her armor be silver. Toa Hagah Iruini has gold armor, and Rahaga Iruini has a gold Rhotuka spinner. Gaaki has a silver Rhotuka spinner, implying that Toa Gaaki would have silver armor. If people don’t want Gaaki to have silver armor, that’s fine, but since these are canon contests, I would expect an in story reason as to why she wouldn’t follow the pattern that Iruini started, rather than just “I don’t like silver Gaaki.”
It would also alleviate the paradox of choice, the idea that the more available options there are, people tend to become more stressed on what to choose (and judging by this conversation, that’s very much the case). Forcing Gaaki to be silver would be consistent with Iruini and solve a majority of these current problems concerning color balancing. If TTV is already willing to mandate the actual metru torso piece, placements of metallic armor, and Pouks not wearing the standard Mask of Emulation, this is just a drop in the bucket.
All this proves is that the “artists pick the combo” entry option would prevent joke entries from becoming canon.
So… even better?
I cannot see a situation in which a legitimate Pouks entry is good enough to get through 2 (3?) rounds of polls to get to the finals on its own merits, but is also bad enough that not a single artist is willing to use it in their selection.
And if this does, somehow, happen, then I don’t think that entry would have a shot in any format.
Man, there’s enough straw men here for this topic to be a serious fire hazard. @Kodiak There, now I have a legal team ready to sue you if you use this.
I’m saying the Hagah should be viewed as if in a vacuum with nothing to compare them to, which is why I said any comparisons to the Inika or Psionics and Light are irrelevant.
All we have to go off of for the Toa Hagah colors are the Rahaga. Rahaga Norik has a dark red spinner, so it has no impact on Toa armor color. Iruini, on the other hand, has a gold spinner as a Rahaga, then ended up having Gold armor when released as a Toa set, which is consistent. The logical inference is that Gaaki would follow after Iruini since she has a silver spinner as a Rahaga. Again, mentioning the Inika as if to disprove this is meaningless.
What he’s saying there is that in spite of the reason behind the vote, which I am fairly confident not that many people actually read to have influence their decision-making, it will likely do little to actually secure anything, much less guarantee the outcome you want. So your arguing and explaining has been over a weak maybe - just figured I’d remind you of that.
In spite of your earlier comment, I’m still in favor of the first and best option; I was only considering the other side because the other two major proponents of that side, SirKeksalot and Willess, made me confident nobody would be trying to mandate any portion of the Hagah winners mid-contest.
I’ll take your widgets now.
I can guarantee that the major post write-ups for the Helryx main round, preliminary round, final round, art main round, preliminary round, final round, Artakha main round, preliminary round, final round, art main round, preliminary round, and final round were not read by 80% of the voters. Know what was? The announcements of the winners.
This was not an announcement for a winner. It was not read by most who looked at it to vote.
Which means naturally they’ll look and read instead of just voting and continuing with their life, yes? Not really. They click the options that makes sense with the surrounding text - or what they already wanted - and forgot about the rest.
Because that’s what they want, isn’t it? We’ve already proved it can’t be a stupid choice, because it’s the majority opinion.
Aboom boom boom.
By the way, welcome to the canon contest discussion. I’d give you the schedule for the evening’s program, but you might enjoy being surprised more.
Another idea I’ll float before I go to bed: we could do a hybrid simultaneous-staggered voting process:
Stage 1 polls for all Toa run simultaneously
Stage 1 designs to go forward are announced for all Toa simultaneously.
Stage 2 polls start either simultaneously or sequentially. I’m undecided as of now, though I lean towards sequential.
Stage 2 finalists announced simultaneously
Stage 3 (finals) are run sequentially, with a random or preferred order
Stage 3 winners announced one by one
What this does is reduce the bias towards the earlier Hagah, because only one or two stages are sequential. This allows things like a pink Pouks or blue Kualus to have a fair chance of getting into the latter stages, but ultimately people who want consistency can still make informed votes in the finals.
There’s still some bias in the third stage at least, but it’s a better compromise than pure staggering or pure simultaneous voting.
They don’t exist in a vacuum, though, and we know bionicle characters can be inconsistent with color.
But for the sake of it, I’ll counter your point a different way. One rahaga had a mettalic spinner that matched their metallic armor. One instance does not indicate a pattern. If Norik also had a silver spinner, your case would be stronger, but right now we only have one example.
Again, how you continue to completely miss the point is beyond me.
Right, it is an extremely small sample size, but it’s all we have to go off of. I see a valid reason for Gaaki having silver armor, and no good reason for anything else.
There’s still the fact that mandating silver for Gaaki would settle most if not all of these discussions about color balancing, which, even if a good number of people don’t want silver Gaaki, I still see as a net positive.
So now you’re saying that the bad entry which shouldn’t have been there is now going to be prioritized by the artists?
First you said that “artists choose the combo” is a bad idea because some finalists might get neglected.
Then, when I pointed out that they won’t be neglected because they were good enough to get to the finals, you cited Hoseryx as an example of a finalist that shouldn’t have been there and would have been neglected.
And now you’re saying that these bad entries that shouldn’t have been there will be prioritized by artists?
Which is it?
I still cannot see a situation in which an entry is good enough to get to the finals, yet is bad enough to be neglected, and also isn’t a meme (which would have been disqualified anyways).
If an entry is so objectively bad that no artist will pick it even just for the meme value, there is absolutely no way it gets to the finals.
See, you’ve revealed one of my major frustrations with forums and the like. If people can’t be bothered to read the reasons why a poll was made, why are they voting? It’s like voting Democrats because you like the colour blue.
That’s part of the reason I’m skeptical of the majority vote for simultaneous voting, because it’s so obviously the right option if you don’t read what Meso said. And then there’s the fact that only three people (excluding me) actually clicked this link.
@Mesonak Next time you make a poll, if it’s not too difficult, please consider making a private video or an audio recording of the write-up. Anything to make more people actually acknowledge it. Maybe I’m biased, but the people that want a staggered poll seem way more vocal here than the ones that voted for simultaneous voting.
I’m ranting at this stage. I need to sleep.
There’s already rules against joke entries. Hoseryx won’t happen again.
I don’t see how.
You asked for a justification as to why Gaaki would violate the precedent – a precedent set by one Toa. I gave an example of a team that violated color precedent all over the place. It’s great to look at the Hagah in a vacuum cleaner, but the fact is, it’s simply not realistic.
Not really.
Even with Gaaki silver, that doesn’t settle anything about the other three. We could still have a 2-2-2 split, or a 3-3 split, or 3-2-1, or 1-1-1-1-2, or 1,1,2,2… it basically only negates 1-1-1-1-1-1.
it solves nothing and creates arbitrary restrictions with flimsy justification. That’s a net negative in my book.
It would probably stop anything not gold, silver or maybe gunmetal from winning, which is controversial to some.
I am interested in Dag’s point about the Rahaka Rhotuka colours. It’s one of those things you’d have to ask Greg about. “Why is Iruini’s Rhotuka gold? Is it because he’s gold as a Toa? Does the same logic apply for Gaaki?”
If he says yes, we’d have to mandate a silver Gaaki.
