This so grossly misinterprets what I said that I can only construe it to be intentional, and therefore there’s not a point to trying to defend myself.
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No, it doesn’t misinterpret anything.
You seem to be saying that it’s a fact of life that Lego is what it is right now, and therefore we shouldn’t criticize it. Well, it’s a fact of life that is the Star Wars prequel and sequel trilogies have quite a few flaws to them, but does that prevent people from making a buttload of videos tearing them apart? No. No, it doesn’t.
Just because Lego is heavily reliant on licenses and niche 18+ sets, doesn’t mean we have to like it. We have every right to criticize Lego for a lack of originality.
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Don’t worry, I will.
Sorry, but you drew that conclusion…how?
Sure, I think Winger has maybe moved on from LEGO and original sets, but that’s Winger’s choice. But all I see here is a pointing out that, depending on the perspective, what was once considered “staple” or “core” to LEGO simply isn’t the same anymore, and that, based on financial success, LEGO isn’t likely to revert to former “staple” or “core” practices.
And personally speaking, I find this hard to argue against. Brand identity changes immensely over time. LEGO was originally a wooden toy company. Then it became a general toy company. Then it transitioned to exclusively plastic bricks. Were any of these things once considered “staple” or “core” to LEGO’s identity at one time or another? I’m absolutely sure of it. But, their identity changed regardless, and they followed where success led them.
But that doesn’t mean (and nowhere does Winger insinuate) that people aren’t allowed to criticize LEGO’s business practices. Success is objective, but enjoyment is not.
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That is not what I am saying.
I am going to be very frank, and not subtle, and a little bit rude.
It’s dumb. I’m saying these kinds of criticisms are dumb. They are toys, and we’re old enough that complaining about them is childish, let alone criticizing LEGO for not having originality: it’s like criticizing Indiana Jones for not having deeper meaning, or Lord of the Rings for not having good enough sci-fi beats, or Star Wars for not having realistic levels of swearing. That’s what I’m saying.
You want originality and good stories? That’s great. But you’re looking in the wrong place.
You’re free to enjoy LEGO. I enjoy children’s books. Heck, I love children’s books that are written with deeper meaning. But I don’t expect them to be something that isn’t inherent to their design. And good stories and originality isn’t inherent to children’s toys. LEGO was special for a while because it made an effort towards those things, but it’s not bad that they aren’t anymore - it’s normal.
Sure, they’re produced by adults. But they aren’t for adults. The Ramona books are by an adult. Watership Down is by and adult. Care Bears is by adults.
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ok but watership down is terrifying
Something important to note is at the time Bionicle came out, it came on the tail end of every single theme and set having some kind of lore attached to it, to the point that some LEGO set storylines were downright dumb. No specific examples; if you’re really interested you can go research the deeper lore of Res-Q and Jack Stone and basically any obscure offshoot of a larger theme.
Bionicle was different because it went completely above and beyond the call of duty and made a massive, compelling lore with dozens of characters with unique personalities, motivations, and positions in the story. And the idea was incredibly unique; biomechanical robots living in tribalistic societies worshiping a great deity in the sky cast into slumber by the brother force in the universe, the manifestation of destruction and chaos, and only the chosen heroes summoned from the sky could free the island and save Mata Nui. Many people like 2001 Bionicle the best, and for many different reasons, but one of those reasons was because nothing remotely similar to it ever existed before.
That’s a really bad standard to set. From then on out, every LEGO theme that had a story was compared to Bionicle, and nothing had any hope of stacking up. It had a detailed flash game, comic books, story novels, promotional CD-ROMs, and McDonald’s toys with genuine LEGO pieces all within the first year. No other theme could or has come remotely close to that level of detailed marketing upon release. Ninjago is the biggest current theme and the longest running, and yet it started relatively small in comparison. Still bigger than other themes, but the marketing was very different.
Before long, any theme with a story that had hours of dedicated time put into it couldn’t succeed with buildable robot figures on the market. So LEGO was not motivated to spend extra resources on something that would sell just as well without a detailed lore, and themes like Alien Conquest are an excellent example of what that looks like. The flash games got lower and lower in quality, and subsequently less and less memorable, along with a lot of the television ads, marketing material, and the like.
And now LEGO has Ninjago, which essentially accomplishes the same market Bionicle did. The big, lore-heavy LEGO theme with tons of effort, except Ninjago doesn’t hold itself nearly as seriously as Bionicle. The world is still whimsical and wacky, which fails to disconnect it from the rest of LEGO’s heavily-focused markets - family-friendly buildable playsets with an emphasis on creativity and coming up with your own design. Hero Factory could have filled the Bionicle void far better if the story had been competent, but it fizzled out at the end, and the result of the singular story-heavy theme is that nothing else has that much love put into it.
Elves had a television show; does anyone remember the plot of it?
I’m actually curious; does anyone remember the plot for the Elves theme or TV show? I never learned it.
We might be seeing that carry over into set design to some degree, but it could also be argued Ninjago is getting the same treatment, so that’s likely a separate issue. The topic at hand, however, is whether or not re-running some past ideas which may seem staple to the company would be risky, and to LEGO they certainly would be. You know the market is being tested with occasional releases, especially in the Creator theme, with the excellent castle and pirate ship that released not too long ago. If they sell well enough, LEGO could consider justification into the development of a particular theme, but I haven’t heard anything about slam-bang sales of either of those sets.
I think it’d be really awesome if LEGO redid the early Castle with forestmen and Basil the Batlord in his big evil castle and all those fun designs and ideas. But a lot of older LEGO was seeing if enough people agreed with an idea, and running with it. Now LEGO is a company run 100% as a business; if it isn’t projected to be at minimum a moderate financial success which will captivate the market it isn’t worth considering how detailed the story would be or if it would even exist. As well, if an idea projected to work very well is presented, the not-as-certain idea will be ignored to focus on the more financially sure option.
Now if you want to argue that no, it’s very safe for LEGO to consider and yes, a story-driven theme is not only possible but a lack of one existing is inexcusable, you’re welcome to do so. By all means do so, if you’re of that opinion. But please don’t begin your argument with
because that’s the surest possible evidence that you don’t care, you didn’t read the other side of the argument, and you’re just here to cause trouble. And it only leads to getting dunked on by people who did bother to read your argument and point out why it wasn’t drawn correctly.
Better to be polite and considered well-versed than rude and considered inconsequential.
now whoever decided watership down would make for a good animated feature I’m going to take out behind the shed and have a nice quiet talk with them also don’t look at the shotgun
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And also because it’s in our rules. There is no need for this melodrama about any of this.
Now then, this conversation can either move to a more appropriate topic or cease. @thewimpykid, I’d encourage you to take a break before reengaging, in any case.
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Yes. The Netflix show Secrets of Elvendale was actually quite good, in my opinion.
The gist of the theme was Emily Jones, an ordinary human girl, gets transported to the magical land of Elvendale thanks to a special necklace her late grandmother left her. There she meets four elves–Azari the Fire Elf, Farran the Earth Elf, Aira the Air Elf, and Naida the Water Elf–with whom she goes on various adventures.
The first wave dealt with Emily’s first visit to Elvendale and subsequent quest to return home by finding four elemental keys to activate a portal. I believe it was at the end of this one that she learned her grandmother was, in fact, an elf, one of the five most powerful elves in Elvendale.
The second wave covered Emily’s return to Elvendale, in which she and her friends had to contend with the villainous elf Ragana, whose shadow powers (given to her when she drank from the mysterious, semi-sentient Shadow Fountain) struck fear into the hearts of most elves in Elvendale. Ragana stole the eggs of the Queen Dragon and captured said dragon, and Emily and her friends crusaded (with some help) to save them all. In the process, they met four elemental dragons and soothed over the disturbed relationship between elves and dragons in Elvendale.
In the third wave, Emily’s sister Sophie followed her (against Emily’s knowledge) on a routine visit to Elvendale and ended up being captured by the Goblin King Cronan (an elf). Cronan used a necklace similar to Emily’s to mind-control the usually peaceful goblins of Elvendale to do his bidding. His ultimate goal was to use the power of Emily’s necklace to free his mother from her imprisonment in his necklace, and he implemented numerous unsavory methods to do so. He may also have wanted to break into the human world–I don’t quite remember the specifics. Secrets of Elvendale covered this storyline in eight episodes. Cronan was a neat character and very well voice acted, mostly using manipulation to achieve his aims in place of force. He employed a mysterious and powerful shadow creature to help him for a while, which, despite its defeat, transitioned neatly to…
…the fourth wave, in which the elemental elves of Elvendale all lost their powers and Emily and her friends attempted to rejuvenate them. The cause of this dearth was the capture of the four elemental creatures by a mysterious new enemy, which, due to the interventions of Emily and Co., eventually blew up into an ultimate confrontation between Lumia, Elven Guardian of Light, and Noctura, Mistress of Shadow. The line ended here, somewhat bathetically, in my opinion, though it was a pretty satisfying end for the fourth wave.
That’s what I remember off the top of my head. I’d be happy to do a bit more research/rewatching of stuff I can find if people would like a full exposition of the Elves storyline. I found it quite interesting.
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Absolutely. Ooh, what about an animated feature-
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Time for the Unpopular Opinions about Winger’s Funeral topic
Anyway, time for another excellent unpopular LEGO opinion of mine: LEGO Ideas was better off as LEGO CUUSOO. Why?
uhh it’s definitely not weirdly-placed nostalgia stop looking at me like that
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I think the problem with Elves wasn’t the story itself per say as much as how it was distributed.
In the first year of the theme, they debuted the show with one single pilot episode. Than in the second year, they had yet another pilot, consisting of two episodes this time around. It wouldn’t be until the third year that the theme got its first fully fledged TV Series… Which let’s not forget, three years is usually the common lifecycle of a LEGO theme. By the time the show first aired, the interest in the theme was already dying down.
They didn’t even continue the show with a second season, as the fourth year only got a few simplistic web shorts with a changed artstyle that was more accurate to the mini dolls.
So yeah, I guess what we can learn from that is… If you want your audience to connect with your story and characters, you might as well debut the story at the same time as the Toyline itself. If you don’t do that, you’re basically just kind of sabotaging your own success.
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true, but the sets for elves where great - like they had some awsome buildings and dont get me started on the animals they where beauuuuuutiful
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[sigh] You’re right. Looking back, I realize that many of my earlier replies were really emotionally loaded and combative. My apologies for any and all harm I caused. Fortunately, these last few replies came in while I was at work tonight, so I’ve had some time to cool down before replying.
But to @winger , well…I’m not sure how to address your points. Again, I apologize for overreacting, but as far as the whole context of this discussion goes, well…it all started with @LegoDavid saying he felt Lego had turned into a soulless company. And I found myself agreeing with these points:
These are feelings I’ve been feeling for quite some time now. Of course, Pakari says…
It is true that Lego has evolved greatly over the decades. But at the same time, I feel that it got to a point where they really stood out from other toy companies. When they started putting out the “automatic binding bricks” in the 1950s, it was really novel, and it established Lego as its own thing-not just another place where you could get a model truck or tractor. Combine that with the vast array of original story-driven themes they had in the 1990s, 2000s, and early 2010s, and you’ve got a toy brand that really stands out as its own thing.
Now? It has…glimmers of the originality it once did, but not as much. Fortunately, it still has its appeal of buildable sets that can be rebuilt into a variety of different models, which is great.
This isn’t the first time I (and others) have expressed these thoughts on the boards lately, but it feels like whenever I do, @Winger replies with something like:
I’m sorry, what?
Toys are for kids, yes, but there can still be effort and care put into them. Like I said before, the same can be said about any form of art-books, movies, video games, whatever. But the “it’s for kids” defense is easily broken. Movies like Norm Of The North and The Emoji Movie were for kids, but that didn’t stop them from being, frankly, really bad movies. On the flip side, the majority of Disney and Pixar films are kids’ movies first and foremost, but they don’t dumb themselves down. They tell good stories that can be enjoyed by both kids and adults, and try to make something that can resonate with anyone.
It’s no wonder why Disney’s Snow White And The Seven Dwarfs is still remembered after many decades while Norm Of The North already seems to be fading into obscurity.
I’m not familiar with either of these, so I can’t comment…
But my main point is: I’m not a “hater.” I’m not making these criticisms because I’m a manbaby, or a troll, or whatever it is you seem to think of me as. It’s because I genuinely care about Lego. Growing up, Lego was there for me in a way Power Rangers was there for a lot of my classmates at school. That’s not to say Lego is “so much better” than Power Rangers, just that it holds a special place in my heart. Even now that I’m older, I still find lots of enjoyment in Lego. Even though I’ve said I don’t like the abundance of licensed themes, that’s not to say the themes themselves are bad. Since I’m such a big fan of Star Wars, and Marvel, and Harry Potter, it’s really cool to collect these sets and minifigures of iconic characters, vehicles, and locations. And there’s Ninjago, too. Even though it’s not too popular in the AFOL community, I still defend it for several reasons. One, because I find genuine enjoyment in it, two, because of nostalgia, and three, while it’s basically the only original story-driven IP Lego has left, it’s still better than nothing. While I still enjoy Lego, I remember when it was really, really, REALLY special, and I would like to see it reach that glory again.
Look at it this way. Imagine a kid who always stays on top of his schoolwork, never shows up late to class, and gets solid B’s on most every test and quiz. His parents are proud of him, and they let him know about it, but at the same time, they encourage him to study even more, so that he can do better. It’s not because they disapprove of him as he is, but because they want him to be the best he can possibly be.
Are you starting to understand my perspective now?
Now, as for what @Ghid said…
Can’t say I do.
Unfortunately, that was a bit before my time, so I’m not too familiar with it. But I do like the idea of rebooting older sets/themes. That’s why I will most likely buy the 90th anniversary set, even if it’s not Bionicle. I see it as a sign that, somewhere in there, Lego does care about the older fans.
Well…yes, but I feel like that’s always been the case. Bionicle came from a time period where Lego was basically throwing everything at the wall and seeing what stuck. Since Bionicle stuck, and was a big seller, Lego kept making more of it for years to come. But when the sales started to decline, Lego decided to wind it down and then put it to bed so it wouldn’t make them lose money.
Similarly, Ninjago was designed to just be a two-and-a-half-year theme, but since it was such a big success, Lego kept it going up till this day. And the same can be said for the licenses such as Star Wars and Superheroes. They were just done as an experiment at first, but since they sold well, they kept making more of them.
The current Harry Potter line is, I’d say, a bit of a risk. Back in 2018, there hadn’t been a new Harry Potter movie in years, and the Fantastic Beasts movies weren’t super popular (I’m calling it: Secrets Of Dumbledore is gonna fail). But Lego took a risk by putting out new Harry Potter sets, and what do you know? They were successful enough to warrant four more years and counting.
That’s…not exactly what I would argue. If Lego did do it, I’d be all for it, but I do agree with you about it being a risk. However, I’m not sure if it would have THAT big of an effect on Lego as a whole. Earlier in the topic, someone brought up the Trolls World Tour line, and how it didn’t sell too well. That theme may have been a failure, but in the long run, it didn’t exactly grind Lego to a halt. So maybe, if Lego made a one-and-done original IP, and it bombed, then they could easily pull themselves out of that ditch.
Should I call the cops on you?
Honestly…I’m impressed you remember this much. It’s more than I ever knew, that’s for sure.
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For a corporation, every venture must be a huge success. It’s all about growth. They can’t just wait for a project to be an absolute trainwreck of a failure, just faltering is enough to get it axed.
I think Nuparu Marhi’s all black design works. He’s supposed to represent a scuba diver and the theme wouldn’t have translated as well if there were more color.
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Yeah, definitely. I was excited for Secrets of Elvendale to continue for the fourth wave, but when it didn’t it was decidedly underwhelming. Elves had great sets and a good story, but while its tentative media was kind of fun in creating a semi-story-driven theme, the varying mediums and releases poorly promoted it. Not too unlike current Ninjago, I might add…
Also, I forgot a brief interlude in the Elves story. The second wave had two episodes focused on actually saving the dragons/eggs, but there was a third full-length episode taking place between the main events of Ragana’s storyline and the debut of Cronan. Ragana returned in that episode, using water from Shadow Fountain to corrupt Naida, who ended up almost killing Emily. Needless to say, it was pretty interesting.
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Using this basic connector as a hand is cringe:
and yet you consistently give no concrete evidence as to why 
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winger stop. It’s his opinion he’s entitled to it.
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Ok maybe i should reiterate:
I Don’t Like using that piece as a hand on its own.
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