BIONICLE G1 Canon Contests Discussion & Questions

[Inertiic]

6a. 3D printed pieces are limited to masks and weapons

First off, what exactly constitutes a weapon. Do shields count? What about a Toa Metru build Toa Hagah with custom Bohrok Shields on the chest? Could I use a blade with ball joints as arms? Or blades as fins? Could I put a naked Custom CCBS Torso on a hand and call it Artahka’s hammer then, claiming it’s a weapon piece, use that torso in the Main Moc? What if there were custom ammo for some of the already made weapons (I.e. Cordak, Midak, or Protector Elemental Blasters.) Or even custom Blasters like a crossbow that uses Lego rubber bands to launch axles. What about a catapult on the back of a Moc?

Second, why only weapons and masks? More choices only means even more creativity. As long as it follows the other rules, I think these would only make the contest more fun. There are all sorts of things there could be: Custom bones, armor, eyestalks, hands, feet, axles, technic liftarms. They just add more detail and variation. It’s definitely possible to make good looking Mocs that use these kinds of 3D printed parts and still feel like Bionicle.

Third, there should probably be rules on the piece’s design. 3D printed pieces should at least connect to Lego in some way. Technically someone could use a gun that can’t be held by a Moc. There should probably be size restrictions so you can’t say, put a human-sized mace on Helryx. It should at least feel like it is a Lego piece.

[Toa-of-Snow]

@Eljay

I want to stress that that last paragraph couldn’t be further from the truth. A main character with a name and a speaking role is a far cry from an unknown Toa of Ice from Lhikan’s team who we never saw in the story. The two aren’t even on the same planet in terms of relevance.

Oh, I agree, but I’m just pointing out that some naysayers may draw comparisons. I certainly think that finding out what mask a named, speaking character wears is fine (and a contest depicting the visual appearance is the best way to determine that short of an official appearance, in my opinion)

@Eljay

Honestly, a common theme I’m seeing among people in this topic is an attempt to thwart people from voting for themselves. There are these efforts to control what people vote for before the contest have been begun. Who cares if someone votes for an Orde with a Rode? Or Pouks with a Kaukau? Is that not up to the individual to decide? Is confirming these appearances not the point?

These are main characters. Characters that have had a focus placed on them. Characters that have spoken with other characters, that have no reason to be hidden in obscurity. So yes, these contests will have an impact on their canon tools and equipment - that’s the point.

Woah, hey - I’m all for people voting for themselves. I don’t mind if “Orde with a Rode” is what people like, and the whole point of voting is to get a fair and equal consensus. So if it came across as trying to manipulate or “thwart” opinions, I’m sorry. My intent was more to ask what exactly it is that people are voting for.

To elaborate, my point was simply that if Bob makes an amazing MOC with a Kanohi Hau, but everyone prefer’s Joe’s MOC simply because it has a mask they prefer for the character, then people are really just voting on the Kanohi they like rather than the models. And to add to that, I am not saying this is necessarily good or bad, only that it likely will happen under the current format and TTV needs to decide whether or not they are ok with that being a factor in the voting.

I personally don’t have a strong opinion either way - I’m just raising points with a critical eye so that when the contests do come around they will hopefully be that much more airtight and fair for everyone.

@Eljay

Here is the exact quote:
Q: When you say Lariska is blue-green, do you mean like a teal-ish color or blue and green?
A: I mean like a tealish color

Another quick question that came to mind here - does this necessarily mean the official “teal” color is necessary? Greg’s definition of teal might not be referring to that specific color - I would personally think that anything one could reasonably define as “tealish” would be eligible (and if someone pushes too much, then they risk losing votes over it.)

tl;dr: Unless someone submits, like, pink Artahka (ok I’m using hyperbole but still ) I don’t think we can say "oh, that’s not teal, it’s dark teal. Sorry![quote=“Inertiic, post:128, topic:51546”]
Third, there should probably be rules on the piece’s design. 3D printed pieces should at least connect to Lego in some way.
[/quote]

I’d like to second this specific point as well.

[Eljay]

@Inertiic

First off, what exactly constitutes a weapon. Do shields count?

Is it something a Toa would carry? That’s a weapon. Or a Toa Tool, if you prefer.

@Inertiic

What about a Toa Metru build Toa Hagah with custom Bohrok Shields on the chest? Could I use a blade with ball joints as arms? Or blades as fins? Could I put a naked Custom CCBS Torso on a hand and call it Artahka’s hammer then, claiming it’s a weapon piece, use that torso in the Main Moc?

We are confident that people will not attempt to circumvent the rules. They’re stated in plain, understandable English. If folks attempt to work around that, we’ll deal with it on a case-by-case basis.

@Inertiic

Second, why only weapons and masks?

Because it streamlines things. Those were the most common pieces to see made for new waves, and are often the most immediately identifying features of a character. Instead of worrying about the concerns of people taking issue with a torso piece they may/may not agree with being included, this keeps things tight and uniform, and allows itself to be more easily monitored.

@Inertiic

Third, there should probably be rules on the piece’s design. 3D printed pieces should at least connect to Lego in some way. Technically someone could use a gun that can’t be held by a Moc. There should probably be size restrictions so you can’t say, put a human-sized mace on Helryx. It should at least feel like it is a Lego piece.

We can consider that. We’ll talk it over.

@Toa-of-Snow

To elaborate, my point was simply that if Bob makes an amazing MOC with a Kanohi Hau, but everyone prefer’s Joe’s MOC simply because it has a mask they prefer for the character, then people are really just voting on the Kanohi they like rather than the models. And to add to that, I am not saying this is necessarily good or bad, only that it likely will happen under the current format and TTV needs to decide whether or not they are ok with that being a factor in the voting.

My apologies, it was more of a general statement and not directed toward anyone specifically. And I get your point, it’s just from my perspective… Who cares why they’re voting? They feel that it’s the representation they want of that character. One of the folks we worked on the rules with made a really good point during the process: It makes no sense to try and make peoples decisions for them. Just let them vote if that’s their vote. The why is up to them, not us.

@Toa-of-Snow

Another quick question that came to mind here - does this necessarily mean the official “teal” color is necessary? Greg’s definition of teal might not be referring to that specific color - I would personally think that anything one could reasonably define as “tealish” would be eligible (and if someone pushes too much, then they risk losing votes over it.)

As far as I am aware, there are only two types of teal in the LEGO color palette. Dark Turquoise and Light Turquoise. (According to Bricklink.) Either of those would be used.

[Inertiic]

Thanks for the clarification about only having masks and weapons. I may not agree, but I can understand that.

[WholesomeGadunka]

There’s an idea that keeps getting kicked around in the comments that sounds something like this: “Ease of reproducibility should be a limitation for entries so that fans can make the winners themselves.” In responding to this I’m not replying directly to specific posts because it’s usually not that in its entirety, but shades of this alluded to in many separate instances. “Paint/custom masks should be off limits so that purists can reproduce the winner.” “Mocs must be at least THIS simple to enter so fans without many pieces can build it.” Since the discussions here weigh more than I thought with the site’s powers that be, I want to plant my uncompromising opinion to push back against this. Hard.

NO, reproducibility should NOT be a factor in this contest. At all.

Obviously no one here can control what a voter’s thinking when they vote, but people who mention this idea of reproducibility seem to want either the rules to reflect such limitations for the voter in advance or for the contest to explicitly promote this as a factor for their conscience. This is the most absurd argument I’ve seen in a while. A moc contest is an art contest. We’re not competing to design Lego’s next cost effective set sold on shelves, we’re competing to build the most appealing interpretation of a character that never had one. However complex or simple someone will build their entry, it serves only one purpose - what they think LOOKS GOOD. And what are voters deciding on? Which entry they think LOOKS GOOD. Period. I don’t remember a single contest while G1 was alive that told its contestants, “Now be sure your mocs are simple enough for most fans to build themselves!” How many of you had the necessary pieces at the time of the contest’s winner to build your own Tahtorak? Miserix? I know a couple of Dark Hunters that had more than their fair share of greebling and rare pieces for their time. People raising this point seem to be losing sight of what a moc contest is in the first place.

Now if the accessibility of these designs is so important to you, great. Vote along those criteria. But don’t pretend it must be made everyone else’s criteria as well. Let’s get this very straight, the point of whatever limitations are made by the rules are for contestants to have an agreed upon starting point before the contest, not for the people after the contest. Expecting this competition to promote or enforce such an arbitrary constraint is a fussiness that goes beyond even the previous thread’s discussions. And reading some of those almost gave me an aneurysm.

[Planetperson]

@Eljay

Because one is physical and the other is using software to digitally alter a design.

Then why are LDD and Stud.io allowed? Sorry, this just seems arbitrary to me. Altering photos is just another means of accomplishing the same thing: representing pieces in colors that do not exist physically.

I was thinking of this Lariska quote specifically, which I think is the original description of her color:

Official Greg Dialogue | Page 140

“I don’t see her as being red. You have to remember this is someone who strikes from the shadows a lot – red doesn’t lend itself to hiding in the shadows (ask Robin). I would say more of a dark blue-green.”

[Tarkur]

Seeing as this is quite and obvious respond to the post I made about this.I checked the entire topic to make sure btw. I must say that my main gripes were never that mocs shouldn’t be complex or must be reproduceable but that certain restrictions should be but on builds to keep the style of bionicle as of now the contest has no such enforcement does it need one no not in everyones opinion.

Did I specifically argue for no nonreprodueable still definately no I voiced my concern about this contest affecting bionicles first and foremost design aesthetic, design language and how too overly complex/intricate mocs clashes with the already established design president set by G1. Again nowhere did I argue that x level complexity shouldn’t be allowed for any character I always argued that x complexity is gonna have a negative effect on the already established design language and astethic of G1.

Good day
//Tarkur

[Infrared]

Yeah you’re right, the votes’ meaning is our sticking point. As you say, I read the original proposals as more hypothetical than intended. As a result I understood the community’s yes vote to mean “yes we can hold some kind of contests,” and you understood it to mean “yes we can hold these contests.”

I do want to articulate where my reading came from. As you pointed out, voters read this sentence, which clearly explains your contest ideas.

@Mesonak

This ranges from major characters such as Artahka, Helryx, and the remaining Toa Hagah, to more minor or recent additions to the BIONICLE story, such as Marendar, the Gold Skinned Being, or the Toa from the Yesterday Quest (Orde, Chiara, and Zaria).

Voters also read this sentence, which suggests that a yes vote was not a blanket approval of all those contest ideas.

@Mesonak

That’s not to say that all of those would DEFINITELY receive a contest, but the potential is there for a large amount of community collaboration with Greg to finally assign visuals to some of these characters.

To be clear, not trying to take a dig here. I’m trying to clearly articulate where confusion came from to prevent these kinds of misunderstandings in the future.

All that said, your proposal is a great solution! Holding votes for the next contest would absolutely make sure there is community consensus for each contest before it happens. And if the community gets a say in the next contest, that may even generate more hype. That’s way better than the proposals I had honestly. @Planetperson you wanted polls like this too, what do you think?

Lastly, Marendar. Props to you for looking back through all that old material to count stuff up. Seriously. I was just rolling with what I remembered from the original topic, but obviously my perception was skewed.

I haven’t been talking against Marendar, or any of this really, because I like/dislike certain contests. I’m cool with a Marendar contest. I was concerned because I wasn’t convinced there was community consensus. In terms of freedom, if Greg has a specific vision for Marendar, then I’d want to respect it, but really if the winning entry is too far off the mark he’ll probably just say so. So I’ll have to think about that more. I bet your suggestion of getting a basic description would bring more people onboard.

Seriously, thank you. You’ve been patient with me and thoroughly addressed my concerns at this point. I’m looking forward to the contests!

[WholesomeGadunka]

No it’s not obviously a response to you in particular, and if that’s not what you argued then I’m not talking to you.

But I’m glad you bring up the complexity issue because that’s an entirely separate nail I wanted to peg. I don’t care specifically who said what but I keep seeing a common theme after reading 100+ comments in here about this great overbearing concern for gatekeeping Bionicle’s aesthetic, however ambiguous that notion is.

“certain restrictions should be put on builds to keep the style of bionicle”
“nowhere did I argue that x level complexity shouldn’t be allowed for any character”

Alright, both of these statements can’t exist together so I’ll assume you’re going for the first. If it really is that much of a concern to you, what hard or practical rule can you set for making mocs look so consistent with G1? The only one I can think of is to ban the use of post-G1 parts, and it looks like ccbs and G2 are already allowed so doors closed on that. What are you going to do, limit the part count? Require using prefab limbs? We already have size guidelines and that’s good enough. I have a simpler idea - why don’t we leave it to voters to decide what looks Bionicle enough to win? I thought that was the entire point of contests. When you’re talking about keeping the G1 aesthetic, you’re not talking for me; maybe I have a different idea of what that is. You’re really not talking for anyone but yourself. And there can’t be limitations imposed based on the slight possibility that something that doesn’t fit your specific vision of G1 wins.

[Tarkur]

@WholesomeGadunka

gatekeeping Bionicle’s aesthetic

No… no… no… definately no. I just think that it should look like a bionicle since it is meant to coexist in the same universe and fit in with the already canon apperances of other characters. I’m going back to the Nikila example the drawing looks great by all means but if you placed her as is next to a group of toa sets on a shelf she’ll look very out of place.

@WholesomeGadunka

practical rule

Here’s one example of such rule, “Your moc should be able to stand on a shelf together with other G1 one sets without looking to out of place or to the point that it can be mistaken for a regular Action figure.”

The above rule isn’t too much of a restriction and doesn’t exclude G2 or system parts while still making sure that the G1 look comes across an example of the opposite of this would be the Tuyet moc linked below:

Toa Tuyet

[Imgur] Long ago, the eleven Toa Mangai stood proudly over Metru Nui: Lhikan — The True Nidhiki — The Betrayer Tuyet — The Tyrant Naho — The Studious Iqwa — The Stormdancer Fjorlon — The Pillar Vinzena — The Truthsayer Tiotekka — The Mastermind Paeli — The Cleanser Waatea — The Wayfinder Coukonn — The Pathmaker (Mask by Maria Ivan) Some extra shots: https://i.imgur.com/TPFk8UW.jpg https://i.imgur.com/uumU0eP.jpg In hindsight the feet probably could’ve had a second pass. I had her in the main pose for pretty much the entire time so when it came time to take some extra shots the ankle area looks a little odd, oops. I don’t think it’s too bad though, probably a good lesson to learn for future neo-toa. https://i.imgur.com/nhPfnMV.jpg https:…

Or the Makuta moc linked by me earlier in this topic.
An example of what I mean would be something like this:

I hope you’ll see what I mean with this example.
Please if I need to further explain myself let me know

[Toa-of-Snow]

While I agree that the aesthetic should at least look like it belongs somewhere in G1, it’s worth mentioning that G1 had a very distinct range of aesthetics within itself.

@Tarkur

“Your moc should be able to stand on a shelf together with other G1 one sets without looking to out of place or to the point that it can be mistaken for a regular Action figure.”

I wouldn’t necessarily say that’s a rule, because it’s super subjective. You cited Nikila as an example - I personally feel like, other than maybe the trident, Nikila fits the style and tone of G1 just fine.

Look at the Rahi/DH competition winners, and then compare that to stuff like the Piraka Fusion, Surel & Iron Wolves, the Xian Weapons! contest, etc. - all of these are parts of the Bionicle canon and none of them feel massively out-of-place with the artwork we see elsewhere. Sayger’s artwork is obviously part of the G1 aesthetic - it’s the cannon comic art for two whole years - but a bunch of people would likely say “that doesn’t look G1” if someone submitted a similar styled artwork or MOC for the contest.

So I think the best filter for what is/isn’t “G1” enough to be canon, quite simply, is voting. Not a rule. If it looks too much like it belongs on Okoto, people will say so by withholding their votes.

[MetaRayMills]

Going to Toa team uniformity vs non

Idk I believe the mangai and hagah all had uniform armour.

Regardless of whether they were originally from different teams or not, they’re a team now and like

It’s armour. You can replace armour. They very easily could have changed armour so that they all looked uniform.

I highly doubt Makuta would want their hagah teams looking different if they were supposed to act and look like an elite guard. They definitely would have been given new armour so they all matched

[Knightx]

I have a question. Is this contest about drawing the character or building it? Because in the rules for Arthaka, Helyrx and Tuyet the rule says 2D?

[Eljay]

@Knightx

I have a question. Is this contest about drawing the character or building it? Because in the rules for Arthaka, Helyrx and Tuyet the rule says 2D?

MOC contests, then art contests to illustrate them.

[Planetperson]

I think that’s a good thing to do, but it doesn’t specifically address the issue I raised in the other topic about “contest bias.”

POLL: BIONICLE G1 Canonization Contests?

The way I see it, the double-contest solves a problem that I would call "contest bias."By holding a MOC contest for X, you will end up with a canon MOC for X no matter what. But the MOC that is good relative to the other submissions might not be that good in absolute terms, and it might be better to wait a while for someone to come up with a better MOC. Plus, as @Gonel said, there might be designs that are divisive. I wasn’t thinking of assigning different tiers of canonicity, though. As for 3D models, maybe the rule should be that you only need to open-source the design IF you win, which would encourage people to submit designs but still hold on to the rights in case they don’t win. @Gonel’s point number 1 is also valid. @Mesonak In my view, the purpose of the second poll would be to de…

The problem I see is that, when participation in a contest isn’t high, or when the quality of the entries isn’t great to begin with, even the winning entry might not be very good. The quality of the result of the contest can be no better than the quality of the entries. So, I thought it might be a good idea to give the community some sort of “veto power” after the winner is announced as a failsafe, by having everyone vote “yes” or “no” on whether the winner should be submitted to Greg for canonization. Moreover, a second poll would further validate the claim that, yes, this is a MOC that the community is generally satisfied with as a canon representation of the character and does not offend too many people.

I’ll give you an example, which hopefully will convince you that this is a problem worth considering. Suppose you had a contest with four entries, A, B, C, and D, and the results were 26% of votes for A, 24% for B, 25% for C, and 25% for D. A is technically the winner, but only narrowly. Should it be made canon? In the extreme case, up to 74% of voters hate it or at least prefer not to see it made canon. Or, at the other extreme, maybe all of those 74% of voters would be fine with it being canon, but had a different first choice. The purpose of a second poll would be to determine which case you are dealing with. Maybe the votes were split because none of the entries were very good. Maybe it was because all of them were super awesome. You wouldn’t want to canonize the result in the former case, but you would in the latter case. The second poll would be an impartial and fair way of determining which it is.

This problem might very well not be an issue today, though. I just wanted some form of quality control to avoid marginal contest results like, say, these ones:

Ravager

Subterranean

Dermis Turtle

[Knightx]

So there’s 2 different contest? If so, must we enter both or can we just join the MOC contest by itself?

[Eljay]

@Knightx

So there’s 2 different contest?

They’re more like stages of the same contest. Like a Part 1, and a Part 2.

@Knightx

If so, must we enter both or can we just join the MOC contest by itself?

You can enter into one, both, or neither. The choice is yours!

@Planetperson

This problem might very well not be an issue today, though. I just wanted some form of quality control to avoid marginal contest results like, say, these ones:

The community is the quality control. Voting for the entry you think is the best is the quality control. The examples you posted were selected by LEGO. The community never had a chance at having input. Very different circumstances.

As an aside, depending on the amount of entries, we’re very likely looking at multiple rounds of voting. But we’re not doing a final “Are we sure sure?” poll. You vote for the one you want. We will present Greg with the numbers (amount of voters, percentages, etc) as we did with the first poll we held last month. At that point, the sign off is up to him.

So make sure to vote. And make sure others that care about this vote.

[Tarkur]

@Toa-of-Snow

Look at the Rahi/DH competition winners, and then compare that to stuff like the Piraka Fusion, Surel & Iron Wolves, the Xian Weapons! contest, etc. - all of these are parts of the Bionicle canon and none of them feel massively out-of-place with the artwork we see elsewhere.

Well thats because they are all made with elements or parts that makes them still fit with the sets on a shelf.

@Toa-of-Snow

So I think the best filter for what is/isn’t “G1” enough to be canon, quite simply, is voting. Not a rule. If it looks too much like it belongs on Okoto, people will say so by withholding their votes.

However I don’t think preventing everything that strives to far from the norm of the “Bionicle astethic.” Is the way to go. I do however want to avoid creations looking like the Tuyet moc in my last post because its design while really cool and amazing on its own, causes contratictions in astethics and design currently in the canon which willt make it awkward in relation to the other inuniverse characters.

Which again I think the previous canon contest winners have done better because they can be displayed with sets without being to awkward except for Nikila(imo).

[VortixxNick]

I have one question. Does that contest apply only to MOC’s or artwork is also suitable? For example if i want to create artistic non-lego image for character (following canoncanonical description of that character) without creating any MOC.

[Eljay]

@VortixxNick

I have one question. Does that contest apply only to MOC’s or artwork is also suitable? For example if i want to create artistic non-lego image for character (following canoncanonical description of that character) without creating any MOC.

The contests will be MOCs first, to create the appearance of the character. Then an art contest will be held based off that MOC, at which point the winners of both will be sent to Greg for canonization.