Wow. You just put my exact thoughts on paper. This isn’t disjointed. This is deep and weighty thinking. Your post is exactly how I would have the story end, with a villain or enemy who everyone has known, even if it never seemed to be the enemy. For this ending, even Annona could be a hero, using her ability to consume dreams as a way of neutralizing the EPE until it can be destroyed.
3 Likes
I’ve been thinking about this some more, and I’m thinking that this could almost be turned into the “creation story” of Spherus Magna.
It would require a bit of retooling to the Energized Protodermis Entity, as well as Annona, but my thinking is that those two, as well as one or two other beings, were the original forms of life in the universe, before some conflict led the others to trap the Entity within a planet that eventually became Spherus Magna. Then, his presence within the planet, as well as interference from the others, is what led the Glatorian and Agori to evolve on the planet.
The next important part is Annona’s interaction with the Great Beings. I would specify that the knowledge that the Great Beings took from Annona was the knowledge of how life and the universe itself was developed by the Universal Entities, and that’s what eventually led them to develop the Matoran Universe and all the beings within it.
Then, as you said, the Energized Protodermis Entity would eventually reform himself to get revenge on those who imprisoned him.
This would also draw great parallels with the Great Being Civil War arc that would hypothetically occur between Teridax’s death and the revenge of the Entity; just as the Toa and Matoran got involved in a conflict between their creators, the Great Beings would get involved in the conflict between their own creators.
(And we know from the Golden Skinned Being that the Great Beings and their creations are fully capable of killing the Universal Entities [unless Annona makes a comeback])
4 Likes
Interesting point here. Again, why? What does EPE get out of this? I think this idea answers the question:
Suppose this whole thing was orchestrated by EPE? He wants out, but can’t leave the planet on his own. He changes Anonna, sees she can now give dreams too, and realizes the implications of a near omniscient group of mortals? Then he deliberately incites war, knowing full well how people will fall right into that trap. Lo and behold, the hyper intelligent Glatorian create a space-faring vessel that requires EPE to run. He’s now got a first class ticket to the far reaches of space, one planet after another, and pretty close access to the surface of the Robot when you consider the camouflage system. Maybe he was seeding the galaxy.
Problem is, Mata Nui is on a deadline. He’s gotta come back to Spherus Magna, the one place EPE doesn’t want to be. So how does he solve that problem? He works to further the Makuta’s ambitions, as we’ve known him to do on at least a few occasions. When asked why the EPE would work with beings it viewed as inferior, Greg said it was interested in the work they were doing. I can’t find that quote for the life of me, but I definitely remember when it was posted.
By giving the Makuta what they want, EPE ensures the Robot is never dismantled, never shut down, never taken home. He knows Teridax would never settle for the MU, not when he’s gained all that additional power. Of course Teridax would try to conquer the universe, and as he does so, EPE spreads like wildfire, with the most powerful guard dog he could ever have asked for.
Kind of a rough outline but I think the idea is intriguing
5 Likes
I’m liking this! My guess as to why the EPE let the Great Beings use it was just because it wanted to see what would happen, going off of the apathy theme I was talking about. But I really like the idea Wekua had that it wants to spread. Greg said that right now the last of EP (and therefore, the EPE) was frozen in space, which makes it unable to use its abilities. This could be one explanation as to why it needed the GSR. It can’t leave planets by itself.
3 Likes
There’s one initial part of that that doesn’t quite make sense to me:
If Annona is one of the Universal Entities on the same level as the Energized Protodermis Entity, I doubt that Annona could be altered by the Entity. And if he could alter her, why wouldn’t he just straight-up kill her, or any of the other Entities when they imprisoned him?
Of course, that would mean that he got lucky with Annona accidentally teaching the Great Beings how to create life… unless he made sure she stayed there as a guard, knowing that the transfer of knowledge would eventually happen?
However, besides that, the rest of this idea is awesome. I had already thought of the idea that the original spring of Energized Protodermis was an escape attempt, but I never considered the possibility of the Entity using the Great Spirit as a method of travel. I feel like the fact that Mata Nui was cataloguing the species of the universe would also be relevant.
I’m not quite sure if I agree with this idea; the Energized Protodermis Entity would have no problem returning to Spherus Magna once he got out. And remember, it was Energized Protodermis that created the being that killed Annona, which wouldn’t have happened if the Great Spirit never came back. I think it would have been enough for the Energized Protodermis Entity to get a free ride and a catalogue of species for 100,000 years.
When did he do this?
New idea: could this have had something to do with the Shattering?
If Spherus Magna was containing the Energized Protodermis Entity, its core must have contained a pretty special material to be able to resist his transformative effects. It’s not hard to imagine that that material would react poorly to the absence of the Entity.
I considered that, but then what was it doing before being imprisoned in Spherus Magna? This might be one of those thing that we need to alter, to say that it didn’t freeze in space.
5 Likes
I could have sworn there was EP on the Red Star but I have nothing with which to back up that claim
I was under the impression EPE couldn’t control the outcome of it’s contact, merely acting as a conduit for destiny.
Don’t even need to be a space god to pull this off; select word choice goes a long way toward behavioral engineering.
Ah, he can teleport his consciousness anywhere his substance is, can’t he? Forgot about that bit.
Still, I’m sure he’d want to milk the trip as long as possible, and Mata Nui’s mission would run against that grain.
Presently working alongside Teridax and Chirox at different pools. The Makuta regularly used their experimentation skills to further their arsenals for conquest. My thought is, EPE made himself a means to that end, to further ensure an everlasting trip around the universe.
EPE acted as the core, right? So if he found a gap somehow, and left a massive void in the center… suddenly the planet is not very stable, and eager to collapse in on itself. Interesting thought.
And he couldn’t care less if that prison was shattered, because he’s vicariously engineered his own escape route.
Perhaps it was present on every world once, and didn’t have to travel physically. When he was imprisoned, they collected up every fraction of his being and locked it in the core of Spherus Magna.
That’s what I was proposing with his access to the outer portions of the robot: he’s using it as a vehicle so he can leave portions of himself on every planet they visit. Every time the island forms, he makes a permanent presence. Makuta’s control would simply extend that mission, allowing him an indefinitely increased presence across the universe.
This still works with HeavyLobster’s idea regarding creative/destructive apathy. EPE ultimately just wants to tinker with reality, but for whatever reason is no longer permitted to. So he acts deliberately as a means to an end: to reestablish a broad presence and manipulate the universe for his own amusement. After all, he’s a superior being. His casual entertainment is as compelling a drive as he needs.
4 Likes
Yeah, there is:
Yeah, that’s canon.
I’ve kind of been thinking that this theoretical storyline would be slightly modified to state that the Entity controls the transformation, though the current canon explanation would explain why he couldn’t just immediately kill his captors.
That’s a good idea. Perhaps Energized Protodermis contributed to the development of life from nothing on each planet it was present (though that would slightly contradict with my earlier idea that Annona gave the Great Beings their god-like creative abilities to make life and a universe, as opposed to simply gathering some Energized Protodermis and waiting)
4 Likes
Yeah, my bad. It was the last of the EP on Spherus Magna, Red Star is still game.
This makes sense to me. I know that the image of the GSR leaving Spherus Magna the literal moment the shattering happened was probably just for artistic purposes, but if the actual shattering happened when the GSR left with the EPE, then that might explain it. Also of note is that there is no more EP on Spherus Magna, meaning that Mata Nui did something to the planet to make it independent of EP, something that the EPE might not be happy about once he returns.
3 Likes
Thinking about it, if the Nuva have any residual EP on them, and the EPE tries to assert dominance over SM, maybe it was a good thing that the Mask of Life reverted Tahu back to his Mata state.
5 Likes
It’s possible that there are multiple ways of creating life, and both cases work side by side. EPE creates “natural” life, and the GB process can create protodermic life, which is a totally artificial baryonic equivalency even beyond the scope of living matter, although I believe it hs been mentioned that protodermis was inspired by EP
This is an interesting concept: do EP transformed beings retain a degree of the substance within them?
3 Likes
We need to ask Greg about this. This almost beats the original story for complexity and workability. With the EPE as the final enemy, you could bring any existing character into the story. No longer would the Bara Magna characters be separated from the rest: they would be an integral part of the story, as they would have the most direct experience with the EP. There would even be potential for bringing back the Mask of Life, as its powers seem to be capable of neutralizing any of the powers of the EPE. And then the Great Beings and Velika would gain some personality, having gone from being the all-powerful creators to people tricked by a higher power, suffering the consequences of their accidental alliance.
3 Likes
I just thought of another Energized-Protodermis-related idea, though it’s not necessarily linked to the ideas discussed above.
We all know that The Shattering was causing when the Spherus Magnans took too much Energized Protodermis out of the core of the planet.
It’s also been said that Energized Protodermis is what kept Mata Nui stable, and that destroying all of it would cause the Great Spirit Robot to blow up the same way that the Prototype Robot did.
Could it be that Energized Protodermis wasn’t just involved in both cases, but actually performed the exact same role? Did the Great Beings figure out how to power the robot with the same reactions occuring at the core of Spherus Magna?
No, protodermis was created before Energized Protodermis:
2 Likes
Oh that is a cool thought. It lines up well with the idea that Spherus Magna is a synthetic planet. Suppose that was the info Anonna gave to the Great Beings - the basic synthesis process that went into making Spherus Magna? That would explain how they knew how to synthesize natural order, baryonic mass, even the use of Energized Protodermis to stabilize their designs.
Whoops. After all this time I’ve started flipping things around in my head.
2 Likes
Combine Telekinesis, Speed, and Fragmentation all into one. It’s the element of pure motion.
In my headcanon/“Lorentzverse” Kinetics replaces Gravity (which is far too OP to be an element imo - only belonging to the Great Spirit Robot).
3 Likes
Botar never died. Once the OoMN was becoming more known around the MU, they wanted to still keep Botar a secret somehow, so they faked his death. Then the order quickly realized that they really need him for specific operations so they hastily came up with the excuse that this wasn’t Botar, it was someone else. If I were ever in charge of the story, I would signal this to readers by having someone (probably Lewa) point out how convenient it is that the new guy looks and talks just like the last Botar. If it were a movie/show, I’d have him listed in the credits as still being Botar, lol.
4 Likes
We had previously talked a lot about why/how the Energized Protodermis Entity would be the final villain, but we hadn’t talked much about what that confrontation would actually look like, or what would trigger it.
After thinking about it a bit, I figure the trigger would be simple enough: the Spherus Magnans got “too independent” in the eyes of the Entity, and he wants to wipe them out and replace them with his own “version” of life.
How he would try to do that, though, is where things get interesting. We know there’s not much Energized Protodermis left on Spherus Magna, and what’s there is fairly well-controlled. Add to that the fact that the characters have developed something that can destroy the substance and there’s probably not much of an immediate threat.
Where the challenge becomes difficult is with the idea I’ve quoted above. If the Entity has been hitched rides to other planets, he could have spent all this time steering life on those other planets towards species capable of invading and wiping out life on Spherus Magna.
Of course, even if the Entity seeded himself on a planet at the very start of Mata Nui’s mission, 100,000 years is a pretty short time for an entire species to develop, so this would probably have to take place quite some time into the future (which gives plenty of time for the Great Being Civil War story arc to play out in the meantime). This would mean that a lot of the Spherus Magnan characters we know would be dead, but most of the Matoran Universe inhabitants would still be alive for this interplanetary battle.
At this point, the story’s scale would be absolutely massive, with war between Spherus Magna and maybe one or two other planets in the Solis Magna system. The other planets would be fighting to exterminate life on Spherus Magna, while the Spherus Magnans would be fighting to eliminate all the Energized Protodermis on the other planets, and possibly wipe out the other species if the latter are too dedicated to their goal.
The Spherus Magnans’s goal would definitely be made easier with an Olmak, but all of those were conveniently destroyed. If no one makes a new one, the only being with that capability would be Vezon. He’d be useful enough to appear occasionally, but I don’t think he’s mentally stable enough to be the immediate end to the war (which is good for creative reasons, as it allows the story to actually happen).
There’s another “plot hole” I though of, and the solution has some really tricky story conclusions.
The “plot hole” is this: if the Energized Protodermis Entity freezes in space, and his captors has the power to seal him in a planet, why didn’t they just kill him by freezing him to death?
The solution I’ve come up with is this: if we’re going with the idea that the Entity is a universal being responsible for all life, it’s entirely possible that the continued development of that life is tied to the Entity’s existence, even if he’s not directly involved. With this explanation, the other Universal Entities kept the Entity alive in order to allow life in the universe to continue naturally.
Of course, if the Spherus Magnans were to wipe out the Entity entirely, that could be an interesting “passing of the torch”; the Spherus Magnans would eventually die out entirely without the Entity’s presence keeping the species progressing, but I see no reason to believe that their artificial creations would have the same ties to the Entity, eventually making them the dominant species on the planet (and probably the universe). Who knows where the story goes from there.
An alternate ending would be that the Spherus Magnans realize that they need to keep the Entity alive (or are told so by someone with far more knowledge of the universe) and simply redo the planetary prison. This ending would probably look a lot cooler. Maybe a bunch of Toa do Nova Blasts to make the planet?
3 Likes
Is that independence literal? As in, Spherus Magna became so technologically and socially advanced as to be self sustaining, free from the flow of destiny, and EPE didn’t like the idea of his inevitable obsolescence? Playing on this later thought:
If these independent lifeforms became advanced enough, they may spread their independent state to other worlds in time. Even imprisoned, EPE has an ace in his deck that the others can’t take away: life needs him. But these Spherus Magnans could change that, so he executes the breakout plan to get ahead of it?
I dig this. It would pave a good platform for the inevitable “overcome our differences” plotline.
I wonder if characters like the Toa Nuva and the GSB are exceptions to this?
Matoro-level sacrifice x100. That would be a truly epic end to the overall story.
I really like these ideas, but there’s one concept we haven’t tapped into much that I think would have a sizable impact on the whole matter: the other Entities. EPE seems to be a personification of Destiny, but what other abstractions are to be represented? Anonna is already established as being a member of a species; is her kind representative of Perception? Or maybe the other Entities are single beings as well, forming a classic pantheon?
3 Likes
I really just meant something along them becoming too advanced. I suppose you could see it as the Energized Protodermis Entity “becoming obsolete”, not because of destiny but simply because the Great Beings started creating life and manipulating reality itself (entering alternate dimensions, controlling time, etc.). Basically, the Entity wants to be the only one playing god.
I think the first quote here kind of answers the second; the whole motivation for the Entity is that this new life doesn’t depend on him. If there was a way to simply make that life depend on him, he’d probably just do that instead.
It could also be interesting to see the differences between the Entity’s worlds as well. I’m thinking that there might be one invading species that is highly technological of their own accord, and were only slightly nudged in the direction of invasion without knowing, while the other species is more primitive and is acting somewhat mindlessly on direct orders of the Entity, who they basically see as a god.
Maybe these things could make an appearance, either as one of the invading species, or as their war-elephant-like steeds:
I’ve been thinking about this, and I’m not 100% sure any more that there needs to be any others. I think the Energized Protodermis Entity kind of works as the universal entity and creator of life.
Of course, I’m still kind of leaning towards there being other Entities, not because I think there needs to be, but simply because Annona really seems like she’d be one. Of course, this is somewhat contradicted by the fact that Annona is part of a species.
Maybe Annona’s species is kind of an in-between; not at the same level as the Entity, and still dependent on him, but they’re one of the earliest primitive species of the universe with crazy amounts of power, basically just one tier below the Energized Protodermis Entity. Perhaps that species is even the ones who imprisoned the Entity in the first place.
Given Annona’s species’s ability to eat dreams, they almost seem like some kind of universal foil to all other species of the universe, which could be what trigged the conflict between themselves and the Entity at some point in the distant past.
Also, as an unrelated note, this phrase got me thinking about something I’ve been wondering about for a bit:
What about the other Entities? Specifically, the other Energized Protodermis Entities in other dimensions?
What happens if you combine Energized Protodermis with Energized Protodermis from an alternate dimension? Are they separate substances and would therefore transform/destroy each other, or are they similar across dimensions and would simply merge the same way that any two bodies of liquid merge when you combine them?
Either way, the relevance to the above story plans are very important.
If it’s the former, then I’d be willing to bet that alternate-universe Energized Protodermis is related to the EP-destroying substance that the Order of Mata Nui came up with, if that’s not just straight-up what it is.
If it’s the latter, then that means that the Energized Protodermis Entity is the same being across all dimensions, and the Spherus Magnans would possibly have to face the armies of the Entity from other dimensions as well.
One advantage I think the Spherus Magnans would have in this scenario is that the Energized Protodermis Entity probably wouldn’t want his armies to use interdimensional travel, or at least not have too much control over it; his whole point is that he wants to eradicate the Spherus Magnans for “playing god”, and that presumably includes their ability to traverse the multiverse. Giving his worlds control over that ability would just be multiplying his problem.
In this case, he’d probably only send over his most primitive species, as he knows they can’t comprehend the technology or use it for themselves.
4 Likes
What I really meant by this was (along the notion that general life was ultimately begotten of EP, and MU beings aren’t), the Toa Nuva are now standing on both sides of the line in a way. Does their existence now have a tether to the Entity, or are they inherently separate from him regardless of their transformation? And if so, are they in particular at risk of death if the EPE is killed?
This could really crack open the IP for Lego. Every world could be host to a three year arc; a whole universe has limitless potential. Star Wars/Trek have proven that
Oh I’ve always had a small corner of my mind dedicated to obsessing over these guys. They and the spear-wielding guys are the only real glimpse we ever got of the wider universe and boy was I unhappy when I learned we would never know more about em. Seeing them make an appearance would have been a dream for me.
I like the idea of a range of civic advancement among the invaders. Rally showcase how, regardless of difference, all beings can fall prey to the same manipulations.
I like your concepts regarding Anonna and her species. I wonder, though, if the nature of that relationship implies the dream-eaters did not spring from the EP like so many others did. Perhaps they were invaders of their own sort, and actually won? A lesser-of-two-evils scenario would be an interesting moral dilemma for our various characters to navigate.
That could catapult the GSB to center stage, as his ability has already been shown as lethal to Anonna. Our Spherus Magnans have already shown multiple times that they have substantial power over both major cosmic players, effectively establishing themselves as a third whether they know it or not. I wonder how that would affect the viewpoints of the invading armies?
There’s no way none of us have asked this question of Greg after all this time… right? I need to know now.
My instinct is to say they’re separate beings, at least, because being a multiversal singularity would afford quite the predictive insight regarding destiny, and he doesn’t seem to know exactly what a being will be transformed into. Of course that’s an easy point to counter, because we’ve really got so little context on the matter from EPE’s point of view.
However, even if they were separate beings, could they blend and become one? Or trade substance without any difference? Or blow eachother up in an antimatter/baryonic matter type reaction? Lots of options here. The last option is kinda fun. Imagine declaring war on yourself, because nobody is a bigger threat to you than you?
3 Likes
I’m starting to come around to the idea that they’re tied to him.
I had previously rejected this idea because I had thought that, if the Energized Protodermis Entity could tie these new life forms to himself by transforming them, then he’d just do that instead of wiping out the Spherus Magnans. However, that wouldn’t change the fact that the Great Beings could still make new life, which was the Entity’s main issue.
I think I’d agree with your idea that the Toa Nuva and anyone else affected by Energized Protodermis would be tied to the Entity.
What about Tahu, then? He’s no longer a Toa Nuva, but that doesn’t change the fact that he was once transformed by it.
From a storytelling perspective, it would be really tedious to write entire story arcs for each new world.
However, from a worldbuilding perspective, it would be incredible to see the characters on these other worlds, and their motivations for attacking Spherus Magna.
In my idea of having one advanced world and one more savage, primitive world, the primitive world wouldn’t have much going on, but the advanced world would be really cool to see, since they aren’t aware that they’ve been manipulated by the Entity and are attacking more-or-less out of their own free will.
They’re also proven that space battles are totally sweet.
I had somewhat forgotten about the spear-wielders. Maybe those are the two species “grown” by the Energized Protodermis Entity.
It would be really easy to say that the spear-wielders are the advanced species and that the creatures are the primitive species, but I think it could also be interesting to flip the script and have it the other way. It would really reinforce this point:
It would be interesting to have the Spherus Magnans see elements of their own society and intelligence in the beings that look nothing like them, while feeling no familiarity with those that look similar.
This is an interesting idea. I was going to say that if this were the case, they’d have no reason to keep him alive, but that’s not true: they needed all the other species to stay alive so they could still have food. That would really hammer home the “foil-ness” of the species to have them be so completely different from all other life.
I’ve checked the Greg Quotes, and I couldn’t find anything. However, that doesn’t necessarily mean it wasn’t asked; people tend to use a bunch of different abbreviations and short forms of “Energized Protodermis” and “Energized Protodermis Entity”, so it’s possible there’s a search term I missed.
With the context that Energized Protodermis is itself a being, and not just a substance being controlled by a being, I agree. It’s not like Dark Mirror Tahu has a mind link with Prime Tahu, so there’s really no reason for that to be the case for the Entity.
In that case, I would say that they’d do to each other what Energized Protodermis does to any other being: transform or destroy.
The only reason I’d want to argue that the Energized Protodermis Entity is a multiversal being is to bring the alternate dimensions into the story, but there’s other ways to do that. Plus, saying that the Entity is the same across all dimensions means that the Spherus Magnans would have infinite armies fighting them. They’d also have the help of infinite alternate selves, and the story would quickly become incomprehensible.
What if this already happened?
I know I said above that the Energized Protodermis Entity should logically be unique to each dimension, but what one of them crossed dimensions in the past and killed his counterpart? Then the Entity would probably still be a single being across both dimensions. In this case, the story can still have the multiversal threat without expanding it to an infinite number of dimensions (and therefore armies).
This could even be used to tie in all the alternate dimensions already seen in the story, with the justification that those dimensions all have the same Entity as our universe.
And this wouldn’t just be a coincidence that the universes we’ve seen are the ones with the shared Entity; I would argue that the Entity linking the dimensions is what caused characters from the prime dimension to enter those specific dimensions in the first place.
(That’s not to say that characters can’t enter non-linked dimensions as well, it’s just that most alternate dimensions seen in the story were visited accidentally, and in an unintentional visit, those dimensions were more likely to come up, almost “summoning” any traveller without a specific destination in mind)
4 Likes