There’s a few things I’m seeing in the past 20 or so messages that I’d like to comment on to clarify them within my knowledge of lore context.
Since there’s a /s, I won’t take this point too seriously, but Maul was always the exception to the stabbing thing. He wasn’t even stabbed, and that might be important. Maul lived because he was angry, which while silly, is at least an explanation. He suffered major consequences due to being split. His would’ve been permanently destroyed if not for Mother Talzin, he lost his position as sith apprentice, and he was never again as physically capable as he was in TPM.
The reason why I think stabbing Vs cutting could be important, is because of the duration the lightsaber is inside the body. We know lightsabers are extremely hot, so prolonged exposure to a body would be devastating. Boiling blood, expanding skin, etc. Also, from a story perspective, lightsaber wounds to the body were essentially guaranteed death for decades, and now in the past few years we’ve seen a massive spike in lightsaber stab survivors, which just cheapens them as a weapon.
For this point, there’s a very simple explanation. In Star Wars, hyperspace travel goes along hyperspace lanes. It’s very likely that Luke took the same lane to Dagobah that Yoda did.
Finally, we have this, which goes nicely with my Thrawn rant. Even if it’s true that Thrawn suspected she would probably die in the wilds, it’s still bad strategy. Thrawn is supposed to be a military genius, so then why is he letting a prisoner become an unkown variable? The explanation has to be that Thrawn released her so she would track down Ezra for him. The reason that makes no sense, is because they had an entire decade to kill him, and were unable to, furthering the incompetency.
Ezra lived with some weird crab people who had no blasters, or effective ranged weapons. Nothing was stopping Thrawn from sending a single tie fighter to strafe them to the world between worlds.
In the last episode, why didn’t Thrawn just raise the ship into orbit, and then dock with the Eye of Scion? Why didn’t he send more than two tie fighters after Ahsoka?
None of his plans made sense to me, and that’s my biggest issue with this show.
Except I never said anything like this.
What I wrote in my original post was this:
See?
In my first paragraph, I clearly stated that my argument about speaking “rubbish” isn’t directed at any of you.
You had left out the entire first paragraph where I made clear that I was talking about those people I mentioned previously.
So, you took what I said out of context and accused me of something I never intended to say or even imply.
I won’t argue that respect and appreciation in part have to be earned, but when a huge part of your audience acts like a bunch of whiny brats who cannot be satisfied with pretty much anything, you may be frustrated as well. OFC, Nothing is perfect, and I do believe that criticism makes the world go forward, but what many of those rabid SW fans do daily on social media is neither valid criticism nor expressing their opinions.
They’re spreading misinformation and spewing hate because what they’ve got from the studio is not what their fan-fictions are like in their heads.
Then you’ve missed the entire sequel trilogy and all the shows they’ve been put out recently.
Okay, but are you really trying to find logical sense in a space fantasy like SW, where space-wizard-samurai-cowboys are fighting with ultra-powerful flashlights, people can build moon-sized space stations, and we can hear explosions in the vacuum of space?
And no, don’t give me the “Every fictional universe should stay true to their established rules” card, because Star Wars has always been inconsistent with itself and contradicted its rules ever since the first film came out.
That’s just what about-ism though.
They’ve been on Peridea for 11 years, and we didn’t see what exactly happened with either Ezra or Thrawn through that time.
So many events could have occurred in that time span and Thrawn is well known for planning everything way ahead.
His primary objective was to get back to the known galaxy.
As for your other points:
He is a genius tactician, but he still isn’t vulnerable to mistakes, plus he had very limited resources on that planet, so he had to work with those.
since the show has ended on a cliffhanger we’ll probably see what will happen in either Season 2 of Ahsoka or in another show/film.
@Racie02
I will react to all of your points listed, but at the moment, I do not have time for that.
Label it whatever you want, but just make sure to actually discredit that as a valid reason.
He clearly wasn’t thinking too much about getting back to his home galaxy, as that was impossible for him to do without help. 11 years on that planet should’ve been far longer then Thrawn could possibly need to recollect his bearings and army, and then destroy Ezra. Looking at the planet, I can’t see what events would’ve happened so frequently that Thrawn had no spare time. He had enough time to find the mothers, he definitely had enough time to hunt Ezra.
I honestly don’t even know what this has to do with what I said.
Assuming that’s a typo, and you meant “he isn’t invulnerable to mistakes”
I’m not even in the military, and I noticed several errors, often more than one in each plan. A military genius should not, and cannot make that many critical mistakes. On top of that, Thrawn, like any good military officer, should have other officers providing input, so mistakes would essentially never happen. The problem is that Thrawn is only as smart as the writers
He had a Star Destroyer, hundreds of troopers, at least eight tie fighters, several gunships, and three mother witches. He could’ve just used the ties and taken down Ahsoka, Sabine, and Ezra. Thrawns problem was underusing what he had, at no point was he actually at risk of running out of resources.
That’s what I did, though.
The ghost of Obi-Wan told Luke on Hoth to go there and ask Master Yoda to train him, but it was never implied nor indicated that Kenobi gave him the coordinates to Dagobah.
That makes your argument just assumption/speculation, which in this case is pretty much just whataboutism.
What you have perceived as “errors” may have been part of his plan.
Many people had similar criticisms about him in SW: Rebels seasons 3–4, where he let the rebellion win fights to analyze their tactics to trap them later and make them overconfident, which would result in them committing grave mistakes.
That’s the point I’ve tried to get across; we don’t know yet because it hasn’t all been explained.
So, you propose that he should have thrown everything at them all at once without allocating his resources?
Yeah, no.
Again, he had limited resources.
And no, more than a hundred troopers, eight or more tie fighters, and a very battered star destroyer are certainly not as much as you would think.
Especially against not one but three Jedi.
Plus, we had seen how often the empire got beaten by the rebellion in battles despite the odds on their side. (The battle of Endor…)
He also had a seemingly precious cargo he wanted to deliver to Dathomir. (Those containers on his ship were probably hibernator pods, into which the rest of the night sisters were put.)
By this logic, 20 or more years would’ve been long enough for the empire and the emperor to hunt down all Jedi surviving Order 66.
Sure, Ezra and Thrawn were stranded on the same planet, but as I said before, we don’t know what happened with them on Peridea in those 11 years.
Also, he did want to go home; as Ahsoka said in the trailers, she heard rumors about his return as the heir to the empire.
Hence, he asked for the help of the witches.
And just because a planet looks barren to you doesn’t mean many things couldn’t happen on its surface. (Look at Tatooine.)
Honestly, Tatooine has become practically a trope at this point. For all the talk in the movies themselves about how it’s an unimportant backwater dump, literally everything seems to involve Tatooine. The way people keep involving it in shows makes me wonder if it was ever intended to appear the way it’s described, or if that was a bit of irony.
I was going to stay out of this argument because I don’t care about the Ashoka show, never watched it and never will, but now I feel like I need to give my two cents
The thing is, most of modern star wars stuff feels a lot more like low quality fan-fiction than actual low quality fan-fiction produced by the fans /s
The thing is, that’s what you’ve seen.
The majority of things on the internet I’ve seen paints a way different picture: people have been pointing out valid criticisms about the new SW stuff (bland one-note characters with no development, lazy writing, overusing nostalgia bait) and the direction, in which the studio has been taking the franchise, while providing sensible arguments for why they think this is the case.
But, this doesn’t mean that my or your perspective is wrong, because the internet is a very big place. Depending on where you and how you look, you will get very different perspectives. So, I feel like it’s pretty unfair to generalise the majority of people criticising modern SW under this strawman of “whiny brats”
Also. If you don’t mind, could you provide some examples of that misinformation and spewing hate you were talking about? I’ve never really seen instances of what you describe, and I’m very curious to find out.
How does this prove that Disney cares about anything the fans say though?
Generally, a studio implementing the fans’ criticism in their work results in the ratings of their work getting higher, viewerships increasing and fans praising the things they do all over social media.
A perfect example of this is the One Piece live action adaptation by Tomorrow Studios. Tomorrow is a studio under Netflix that specialises in creating live action adaptation of anime. To say their first work, Cowboy Bebop, was extremely poorly received both by hardcore fans of the original anime and casual viewers would be an understatement. If was a complete disaster. Very few people watched it, and those who did hated it. In fact, it was so bad that they cancelled the production of any future seasons only one week after it was released.
But then, what they did was unheard of: they listened to all the the criticism the fans gave them, both justified and unjustified (and yes that includes the “useless whining” you were talking about), made conclusions, and used that information to fix the mistakes they had previously made in their next project, One Piece. And guess what, that show was universally praised both by fans and casual watchers alike. It has very high ratings and is the most watched show on Netflix period, beating the likes of Stranger Things and Wednesday.
That’s what happens when you listen to fans.
Disney on the other hand, did not make such efforts with SW in the slightest. If they did, their movies wouldn’t have such low ratings, and their shows wouldn’t have dwindling numbers of viewers on their own streaming platform, with the investment of fans decreasing with each show. If they did, the fans wouldn’t complain about the quality of products they produce all over social media.
So yeah, long story short, don’t blame the fans for complaining. Blame the studio for not listening to their complaints
That’s such a non-argument though. You can use it to justify literally anything. Why write compelling three dimensional characters with interesting personalities, it’s just a silly space fairy tale… Why care about continuity and in-universe rules you established, it’s just a silly space fairy tale… Why create engaging and creative stories, it’s just a silly space fairy tale… Why care at all and not let AI or something write all your stories, it’s just a silly space fairy tale…
Regardless of whether or not it’s directed at this site or others, Cronk’s point still stands. It really does make you look like you’re just shutting people down because you know better than them.
Imma be real, your entire quote doesn’t exactly steer that implication away. If someone is abhorrently wrong, to the degree that they’re a standout amongst an incredibly vocal community, perhaps I should hear how exactly they’ve messed up in their arguments and/or opinionated stances.
Is TTV the place for it? ehh probably not
While I completely agree with this sentiment, and although I do have Disney-related counter arguments against it being an excuse, Cronk is not a rabid Star Wars fan who loves to seethe across the internet in an attempt to fill his Lucasfilm-bound rage. I don’t know everything he does, but given the immense lack of a Star Wars focus in every other presence he has, I’m guessing this topic is the most he ever commits to it.
I’m having difficulty finding any single person who asked for any portion of the sequel trilogy in terms of direction, story, characters, lore, or even existence. Most of the Star Wars content Disney has put out has been reviled by the majority of media-consuming people in the world with only a couple exceptions, and even those exceptions seem to shift as time goes on.
If there’s any course-correction going on right now, it’s either in complete ignorance of the vast majority of people or it’s in retaliation to people not liking it and going further afield.
So wait.
Is your retort to my point really “well it’s science fiction so expecting a shred of consistency is flawed”? I’ll absolutely give you the Every fictional universe should stay true to their established rules card because Disney has decided to stay consistent to practically nothing outside of what’s going to make them money, that being established characters and plot beats they know sell.
Keep in mind this is the same Disney which tried to kill off every remaining beloved character in Rise of Skywalker and only course-corrected when literally the entire test audience walked out mid-screening. If for nothing else than to show they actually care, yes, I expect them to stick to at the absolute minimum what they’ve established in the short time they’ve had to nosedive this franchise into the ground.
Also Krelikan’s theory is “maybe he took the same highway and so ended up in the same spot”, just to be clear, so it was always speculation. We don’t have the answer from anyone who was originally involved because there was no answer at the time, and even assuming this truly was just lazy film making at its finest, that doesn’t justify the even lazier and even more egregious occurrences of characters getting stabbed through the intestines (one of the most viable spots to stab someone to kill them, jsyk) and essentially walking it off in a few hours.
?
Whataboutism is about counter-accusations and ad hominem, this is… a hypothesis on how it could be explained away based on the existing rules of the universe. Right or wrong, this isn’t an attack.
This argument is just assumption/speculation, which in this case makes it pretty much identical to the hyperspace lane theory. Both are based on preestablished information and lore and and both sound just about as plausible.
I’d beg to differ.
The majority of those criticisms are hardly valid or justified, most of those consist of baseless assumptions, and people simply misunderstand or twist things out of their context.
Like: Luke’s character development in TLJ. (I get back to this later…)
Throwing around things like “lazy writing”, and “one-note characters”, are not criticism.
people these days always use them to describe the quality of the sequels, but they mostly fail to back them up.
All social media platforms from YouTube to Facebook to Twitter (“X”) are full of these pseudo-intellectuals, who call anyone “Disney-Shills” or “fake fans” who don’t agree with their stupid takes on the films fueled by bigotry, misogyny, and far-right wing propaganda.
(The fandom manace in a nutshell.)
That sounds good and dandy… on paper.
But the reality is, that most fan fiction or fan-made stories are hot garbage.
Granted, the companies and studious can and often do screw up their Ips’ iterations, but this kind of sentiment, that: “The fans know best!” is total bull.
Sorry to break it to you, but fans and Fandoms, in general, are not some type of holly entity the creators should always listen to and serve.
You pretty much ignoring the fact that Lucasfilm did that by changing the course of the new trilogy by adjusting the plot of each film to what the fans are wanted:
1. People wanted more OT feeling and fewer Prequel-like elements:
-They made TFA, which did that, by relying on a lot of nostalgic elements and using familiar plot beats to hook up the old fans.
2. People hated it being too nostalgic and wanted something new and unexpected:
-They made TLJ, which did all of this while endorsing some of the core messages of the franchise.
And the list goes on…
They constantly try to meet the demands of the audience, and course correct, but the fans are impossible to be pleased
Yes, I can!
because as I mentioned before:
If you know anything about SW, it is that it always contradicted itself, not only in the new films but even in the OT and the PT as well.
It was never consistent, to begin with, and those who always seek consistency over trying out new stuff are way too narrow-minded and fixated on the canon.
Ever heard of a map? Even if I am assuming that Luke and Yoda used the same hyperspace lane, that’s a very logical explanation. There has to be a reason why Luke crashed right on top of Yoda, and my answer is the most obvious answer to that. You make it seem as if thinking through a problem is impossible. I could just as well say that your speculation on constant events on Peridea is what-aboutism. There’s also nothing to suggest things were happening in those 11 years, except that Thrawn couldn’t track down Ezra.
He didn’t need to do any of that though. It’s not like this is a Rebel general, it’s just some random people. It makes no sense to pull punches when the goal is to kill them. There’s also the fact that Thrawn never gave any indication of losing on purpose. He actually made it seem like beating Ahsoka was impossible, hence his stall tactics.
Saying stuff like “We just have to wait for more shows so this can be explained.” Is just excusing bad writing. A franchise shouldn’t rely on fans pouring out flaws, they should see them on their own.
100%. They only had a single ship which was already weakened, and apparently lacked good weaponry. Two tie fighters almost took them out of not for their bad formation. Imagine what three would’ve done. Ahsoka and co. had no air support, and no blasters. Jedi are dangerous, but a tie fighter would have no issue.
I’m going to ignore the fact that you can’t count since all that really matters is the tie fighters, and to some extent the star destroyer. I’ve already explained the ties, and as for the star destroyer, it doesn’t matter if it was battered. All the turbo lasers worked, and it flies. That’s all that matters. Thrawn could’ve easily bombarded them with it.
Also, the Eye of Scion had (really terrible) fighters as well.
One Jedi with a weapon, one Jedi with no weapons, and barely a Jedi who is known to make bad decisions.
Still no air support
Which is why you don’t nickel and dime your forces out to them. If you underestimate an opponent, that usually means sending less than is necessary. If Thrawn was thinking “These guys are probably more dangerous than I give them credit for.” He’d send more forces for assured victory.
Okay?
A galaxy with thousands of Jedi compared to a single planet with one Jedi who came with you to that planet on your ship.
What-aboutism
I didn’t say he didn’t want to go home, I just said he couldn’t without outside help.
But it still more logical to assume a barren planet has little going on, than to assume a barren planet is filled with constant struggle. If the surface was so dangerous, they could’ve just camped out in space. It’s clear to me that the surface isn’t deadly though, because Ezra had no issues surviving.
Well, if the person throwing them around can define “lazy writing” and “one-note characters”, then yes, they are. If it’s only a talking point, then no.
“Only a Sith deals in absolutes.” ― Obi-Wan Kenobi, Revenge of Lazy Writing
Um.
Firstly this isn’t evidence, this is just another statement by you.
Secondly I very much doubt every single person on the largest social media sites around exhibit these things you mentioned while also being fueled by… any of that. I can think of a good number of Youtubers who logically and reasonably lay out their quite legitimate grievances with modern Star Wars and all of its failures without resorting to hating women.
I don’t think that was what he was saying at all. Audience reception makes or breaks an intellectual property no matter how much cash you throw at it, and if people don’t like something, they will eventually lose interest - even with as large a cash cow as the only viable science fiction property left (Star Wars).
They should be - if they want to retain relevance in an economy hard pressed for cash and an audience base thoroughly fed up with their antics. No, the fans don’t run the project, but if 80% of your market doesn’t like you, that’s something that needs to be rectified.
Do 80% of Star Wars fans hate Star Wars? Probably not. But the amount of people who disapprove of the franchise is in the majority, and it’s thanks to Disney.
They made TFA, which borrowed its entire plot from the first film.
They made TLJ, which killed Luke Skywalker in the most milquetoast manner possible, killed the primary antagonist set up for the series, killed off the most marketable original character they had created outside of BB-8, and gave Leia impressive force abilities off-screen.
And then, somehow, Palpatine returned.
The only real demand made by fans which could very easily be achieved and which was consistently cried out by the viewerbase was “please don’t trample on everything we love about the franchise”, and depending on who you ask, audience perception leans in the direction that they defied this 100%.
Which means its justification of this is flimsy at best. Since it can be applied anywhere, let’s also say the next episode of whatever current TV show is being churned out is done entirely in sign language by Lizzo and Jack Black, with no context in relation to anything else going on or carrying over the plot of the rest of the series. The fans will contrive some answer for how it makes sense.
It’s just a silly space fairy tale…
Excuse me I think you mean knife
Krelikan made good points too, but I’m only here to support Nota atm since all my original points got ignored. Nota I see you typing
That example was the first thing that came up in my head, as it’s the most recent one in my memory, but I’ve got plenty more of those (not anime related) just in case
Okay, nice, I hear you. Now give me an example so that I can understand your point of view better.
Here you g- wait, that’s not an example
That’s just making a statement with no explanation. What’s so special about Luke’s character development in TLJ? The fact that it goes against every ideal he stood for and completely cancels out his development from the OG trilogy? If that’s the case, then hey, our views might be way closer than I thought.
Okay, I agree, me just throwing those statements at you was not very based of me. I was wrong.
Now I’ll elaborate on them.
Lazy writing:
90% of episode 7’s plot being lifted from the original trilogy with nothing new added. It’s essentially 4 with elements of 5 and 6 stitched together
The B-plot with Finn, his girlfriend and the pilot guy in episode 8 being completely redundant and bringing absolutely nothing to the table. The only thing these guys achieved during the movie is getting 90% of the resistance’s fleet destroyed and not being punished for it afterwards (seriously, I’ve never seen anyone bring it up and that’s such a big plot hole)
“SoMEhoW PalPaTiNe RetUrNed”
And the list goes on…
One-note characters:
Rey having the emotions of a brick, achieving everything without even trying and having no meaningful internal conflict
Finn who was at first set up as an extremely interesting and promising character (we rarely see rebelling troopers in this story), but got so sidelined in latter films that even the actor himself complained about it.
The resistance pilot guy (whose name I cannot remember for the life of me) who goes through no character development whatsoever and is almost forgotten by the end of the trilogy
And the list goes on…
It’s not those fans that don’t provide any valid criticism, it’s you who refuses to see it.
(I will not quote the rest of this because I don’t want to involve myself into politics that are completely irrelevant to this conversation)
That’s not an example of what I asked you about. That’s just stating a fact. Show me examples of people who say and do those things. If it’s too inappropriate, my discord nickname is the same as on this site, send it to me there. I cannot properly agree or disagree with you until I’m presented with a justification to do any of those things.
I wasn’t talking about fan fiction in my argument. You might have misunderstood me.
How is the sentiment “the people who X product is specifically made for know what X product is supposed to be” total nonsense? If a show/movie from a franchise is not made for the fans, then who is it for? What is the audience if the fans are alienated?
Refer to my previous statement.
As stated before, it wasn’t “familiar plot beats”, it was “completely copying the original trilogy’s homework without adding anything else”
As far as I’m aware, people generally hated it for being an uninspired copy of what came before it.
The thing is, it went very far to undermine every single core message of the franchise, which nobody ever wanted…
I do not understand how its possible to have more sympathy for a multi billion dollar company that’s been trying to monopolise the entertainment market for the past ten years than ordinary people just like me and you who want to experience good stories again…
I. Want. Examples.
Please.
The only thing you’ve been doing all this time is making statements without providing any justification. How does the OG trilogy contradict itself? How do prequels contradict themselves?
I will not be compelled to side with you unless I am shown why I should change my mind. And believe me, I’m not a closed minded person. I’m ready to change the way I see things. It’s just that I haven’t been provided with compelling reasons to do so…
What’s funny is that you’ve been calling other fans narrow minded, but throughout all this time you haven’t tried to accept other people’s opinions, even after being provided with tons of evidence and justification. Does it make you as closed minded as they are?
If you can justify every mistake, every contradiction, every plot hole in a story with “it’s just a fairy tale bro ”, then I’m genuinely happy for you. You must be a much happier person than I could ever be, since you can enjoy a lot more things than I can. And I’m serious when I say this, good for you mate!
I think I will refrain from participating in this discussion further as it might have gone too far and I’ve already said everything I wanted to say. Cheers!
(Edit: for the record, a lot of the points made by me in this reply are very similar to those made by Ghid in the reply above. We were typing at the same time, so all the similarities are purely coincidental)
The most based take in this entire discussion. Cronk put it way better in just one sentence than I could’ve in several paragraphs
GG
man thank gosh I’m not a SW fan anymore becuase if I still one I don’t think my showflake butt would even survive
also what the point of saying “more power too you” when everyone else think the thing you like it garbo? I more feel less powerful then the Majority I guess
“I don’t recall ever owning a droid” Obi-Wan
“I remember my mother.” Leia
“Your father was killed by Vader.” Obi-Wan
Sure, one is justified, one is Obi-Wan being coy, and one is likely just Leia remembering wrong, but they are all things that changed from one movie to the next.
Well, they have a justification in the plot. A real contradiction would be something that never is addressed in the plot. Your example is explained in the prequels, as Obi-Wan never owned either of the droids, Leia was adopted as an infant, and the final quote was Obi-Wan not giving Luke psychological torture by telling him that his father is one of the most evil people in the whole OT.
”, then I’m genuinely happy for you. You must be a much happier person than I could ever be, since you can enjoy a lot more things than I can. And I’m serious when I say this, good for you mate! 
