I want to remind y’all of entries that nearly won the Helryx contest:
This last one ultimately placed third behind “Bendy” and the accepted Helryx MOC by Double. If we want the winning, or even leading, Hagah entries to be canon-compliant, we absolutely cannot rely on the good judgement of the voters.
I’m fine enough with the preliminary ruling on the limb/armor/etc stuff. I think general aesthetic sense will keep most people from using egregious pieces for the most part (although I personally will still moan if the metallic colors don’t have a good balance on the team overall :P).
And the upper and lower Metru torso mandate is the way to go IMO. It’s simpler and will create fewer headaches for you guys in trying to determine whether a certain MOC fits the rules. The stud-based system of measurement seems too liable to grey areas of “Well, the torso is only 5 studs, but the armor bulks it out to 6,” as exemplified in the second picture of the white torso. It’s not impossible to either articulate such limitations in the rules or in judgement calls, but again, why go through that hassle when you can just mandate the upper and lower Metru torso?
That’s so different. Helryx has no predefined build. The Hagah do, and most people have a relatively common interpretation of it.
I mean no one’s complaining about custom Artakha.
Well considering how much discourse/drama/arguments there have been over what is a Metru/Hagah build and what is shared between the Hagah
I’d say people in fact don’t have an idea of what the Hagah look like
I’m a strong proponent of the rules only mandating what we canonically know about these characters, but I understand why many fear inconsistent designs, especially given how the contest is being run with all four at the same time.
How would people feel about a ruleset in which there are required rules and “optional” rules? I’m imagining something like this:
REQUIRED:
“OPTIONAL” (You must follow at least x number of these rules)
First off, apologies if you felt like we strawmanned, disrespected, or misinterpreted your points. Sans outright reading every single post in this topic verbatim, accurately representing every possible POV with pinpoint accuracy would be impossible within our timeframe. I opted instead to highlight not only individual posts, but posts which were the source of discussion on a larger scale. Your Vakama, for instance, like you say, was not directly relevant or created as a response to these Hagah contests, much like WholesomeGadunka’s MoC also was not. However, these MoCs became the source of larger discussions and so they were discussion worthy because it addressed swathes of people in one go.
I happened to really like your suggestion even if I don’t personally relate to the need for it, as I think it’s a fair compromise between the points and I appreciated that you were being constructive in the topic. As such, I don’t really appreciate the vitriol being spewed or talking down to me as if I’m a child who needs to go sit in the corner. Eljay and I both can readily admit that we are not MoCists, so we’re not approaching this from a MoCist perspective.
As such, to US, this seems pointless (important distinction there), because what you can achieve in 60 pieces can generally be achieved in 5 with very minor borderline indiscernible differences. That does not mean, however, that your line of thinking is pointless, because at the end of the day it matters to you and how you build and how you express yourself, and you have just as much of a voice as anybody in these whole proceedings. I think we made that pretty clear, and I still believe that.
To address your post specifically, the images were not specifically used because the discussion was brief and the only thing I personally felt was relevant to the bigger picture at hand was the dimensions. which I was able to satisfactorily explain without posting 6 different images. With respect, if we had discussed this image for instance in depth:
https://i.imgur.com/v2cx3Kg.jpg
You probably wouldn’t have been happy with our tone because we probably would have laughed at it. A lot. Not for the purpose of belittling you, but because from our unique perspective as non MoCists whose primary concern is canon… the difference here is, again, borderline nonexistent. I get what you’re trying to convey, truly, and from a MoCists perspective you’re 100% correct. I think you adequately made your case for why the idea is solid, I presented it as such, and we’re fairly considering it based on all the points you made. But I take heavy issue with the assertion that we somehow “strawmanned” your argumentation, because nothing in your essay makes me, as a non MoCist, understand it any more. It still seems like way more work than it’s worth (both in terms of creation on the part of the builder, enforcement on the part of the moderators, and potential for bending the rules on behalf of the community) for results that are barely different from using a standard Metru torso.
Again, to directly respond to your essay:
virtually no creativity is possible.
Again, I’m sorry if you feel offended. We seriously didn’t mean to, and I appreciate all the work you’ve put into discussing this.
That’s exactly my point, though. The Hagah do have a very strictly predefined build, and there’s little to say the voters and builders will all acknowledge that. Helryx’s build was at least defined as recognizable to a Toa, and yet the second-place valid entry was commonly compared to a Vortixx or even a video game model.
Being the only available option at the time isn’t really a “staple”.
As you said, to you.
To me, that difference is noticeable, and something that I would try to achieve if it were my MOC.
“Keep it simple” is a basic principle of design. When a hundred pieces are used in an attempt to replicate the form and shape of pieces that already exist in a few-piece solution just to “do something custom”, it’s unnecessarily complex. Not to mention it looks terrible 99% of the time.
My main concern was of getting a design, that when changed into the metru torso and hip pieces in the artwork is impossible to replicate irl. Just about all of the ones I’ve seen are like that but I don’t think they’re going to win anyways. If they beat the odds, oh well 
actually, can’t you achieve the same proportionality effect with a metru torso using stopped 4L axles.
I didn’t choose the images, Meso did. Not that it matters, none of the photos you posted would have convinced me.
So with zero due respect. Got it.
The point. What is the point? You want to make a custom torso for characters we have confirmed torsos for because… you just want to? Go ahead and make them, to your hearts content, but they’re not canon compliant.
Artistic license is a great way to excuse “We don’t have the molds anymore and this Rahkshi is in the style of the rest of the Stars.” We are not hindered by that limitation and shouldn’t be forced to abide by it because you don’t want to use specific pieces.
Additionally, the Rahkshi can be excused otherwise - they were modified to sport thicker, light-resistant armor.
What I don’t appreciate is this sheer arrogance that you protrude because you believe your creations and arguments are so infallible that there is no way you couldn’t convince others you are right.
You have not given a sound reason as to why, in a contest about factual canon, actual, tangible visual fact, it would be a good idea to disregard mandating the pieces used by our current Hagah.
Nothing I’m saying in this post is binding, we are still fielding feedback. But if you want a direct response moreso than the one you have already gotten, here you go.
Purely out of curiosity, what about this was disrespectful? Harsh maybe, but not disrespectful.
They weren’t really the only available option, but even if they were my point remains. They are a consistent part of the Metru and Hagah build. The Toa Hagah did not use Vahki/Mata feet, Bohrok feet, or Hordika shins, all of which were available at the time. They did not use Metru forearms; they used Metru shins as their forearms. These are defined parts of what makes a Hagah build vs. a standard Metru.
It suggests that the only reason we hold our stance is out of arrogance, which isn’t true in the slightest. It assumes motive before any actual dialogue can be had.
On our site. About the contests we’re running. In response us… who he is attempting to convince. It’s massively disrespectful, which is just disappointing.
Eljay, I don’t believe your stance is held out of arrogance – heck, I hold it too – but the manner in which you’ve attempted to deal with Dag has been less than tactful. Meso’s rebuttal actually addressed Dag’s concerns and explained why in this canon contest they aren’t really a priority.
communication, people, communication …
For the record, I would like to make the quick and simple case that while I’m all for creative opportunity in this contest, in terms of limb variety, armor and colors, weapon designs (as long as it’s a polearm/spear), I think the Metru gearbox should or can act as the main constant. It’s like Eljay said last night; nearly everyone has at least one Metru gearbox, meaning that anyone can make a Hagah. If it’s required, then it won’t kill creative opportunity. It’s part of that threshold I mentioned, earlier.
Another image in this thread seems to prove that that is the case.
However, my point wasn’t necessarily that custom torsos are necessary to make that specific connection, but moreso about Meso’s broader statement that such a change is unnoticeable. Dismissing custom torsos because the changes are “unnoticeable” is a highly subjective statement. I could just as easily say that custom torsos should be allowed, because the changes are “unnoticeable”.
There have been many reasonable justifications that I have seen to disallow custom torsos, but “that difference is unnoticeable” isn’t one of them.
This part.
We have different ways of approaching these things, certainly. I do not appreciate the perception Dag is attempting to convey, and will respond to it plainly and honestly. Meso and I are both heavily involved, and neither of us cancel out the other.
This is all, of course, ignoring the fact that we have asked that the Metru torso conversation be put on hold in this topic for a bit. But alas.
The differences might be noticeable – by your own admission, by some people more than others – but I feel as though aesthetic perfection should come second to canon adherence. Look at, for example, Gresh’s terribly gappy armor. A MOCist could fix that instantly, but that wouldn’t make it canonically-compliant.
every soldier regardless of MOS is expected to shoot move and communicate hooah
