Usually GMs ping when a response is important, but like Winger said I really don’t care either way. We’re more alive than Dreamspace, so that’s what counts.
3 Likes
I’ve been using @mentions to bring attention to players who aren’t already quoted in the post whom I am addressing. As a GM, I think it makes sense to mention all players the post affects.
1 Like
It’s fine. I’ll see it regardless, but it’s a nice reminder if my post wasn’t quoted.
4 Likes
I dont particularly care. I get notifications from these two topics anyways, but it isnt bothersome if I get pinged
2 Likes
This is becoming a problem. And until resolved, if it can be resolved, I will not be responding to this post for some time. Not that this post is usable, as it has provided no indication or need of action.
TheMOCingbird, your writing lacks clarity in regards to the space/map of the area and location of things. Along with minor failures of continuity and larger issues of world forces acting contrary to their logic. For demonstration, we will be going through this post by post when each issue appears.
First off is the opening post itself. Others had already pointed out the most immediate (potential) contradiction here regarding the sun. However, I don’t believe the others, even yourself, realized why this was confusing and a problem.
Your post says, quote,
This statement, taken as written, means that the characters could appear anywhere. They don’t have to be inside the ship, just underneath some debris of the ship. Which implies that the ship is significantly damaged, later supported by Duke’s comments about the ship being unstable. However, nothing was provided to the players (at start) to show or describe just how damaged the ship is or its current position.
Without such crucial information, players couuld only assume that they’re inside the ship. The narrative opening also implies that they should be inside the ship still. Since it was stated that they remember the alarms and the ship going down. Hence the confusion for how they could see the sun while also being entombed in metal. It sure sounds like they’re still inside.
So let’s say your intention was for them to still be inside a piece of the ship. There are few locations, unless the ship is significantly more damaged than described at this point, where both being trapped by rubble but also in view of the sky is possible. After all, Venator-class Star Destroyers are mostly hangars with massive doors and little else. Meaning most would have their characters appear somewhere in the hangars.
This confusion could have been easily avoided if either:
A. Picked a location(s) for where all the clones would start. You partially did this already by specifying what they could see (sun, sky) and their current predicament (under rubble). At that point, you might as well had them all in one spot or a few premade areas with random selection.
B. If sticking with the players deciding where their clones ended up, the map needs to be more clear. As in option A, you could have a couple preset locations to make it easier. Or, at a minimum, properly describe how wrecked the ship is and some visual aid. The characters won’t know the state of the ship yet, but it doesn’t do the players any good if they don’t know.
In this topic, this conversation somewhat clarified with the following.
That is information we really need, and honestly still need, to better understand what’s going on. For where the clones first wake up, and how they need to respond depending on ship orientation, and later as they travel around it. A more exact image and/or description is really needed.
First, Wannabe appears and location is not specified. Bravebird and Quips post next, both in the hangar; Wannabe is suddenly specified as being in the hangar. And then they hear Tesz’s cries for help…from where, exactly? Is she also in the hangar? By the hangar?
So, she’s by the remnants of the bridge. But the trio are still in the hangar. And they can hear her, even quickly get to her, but even the furthest back the hangar goes is still quite a distance from the bridge. Not to mention needing to get out of the hangar first and then get to that area. Is there a nice, big clean hole in the back? How did this event happen? Is the Venator not only in pieces, but those pieces laying on top of each other?
There is no clear sense of space here. How, from the hangar, did they so easily get outside, to the bridge, and to the Jedi?
Graphite is trapped somewhere, unspecified. Saddle, in corridor and then hangar. Rescues Graphite from further in the hangar, must have missed the other group of clones. I guess no-one did a good look around.
Rook, unspecified. Legacy, quarters/sleeping area. Captain Duke manifests in crew’s quarters, evidently near Rook and Legacy. Boomstick, unspecified, but somehow not far from the the group near the Padawan. Buoy, unspecified.
Speaking of Buoy.
A fun note to clarify and further prove the issue. I didn’t have Buoy appear inside the ship and thinking he was drowning as a stroke of subversive genius. No, the only reason I didn’t have him appear in water was due to the opening’s wording and it sounding like they were in the ship. That and being trapped under rubble and underwater would have sucked.
It also being a jungle planet, and not particularly certain on what type, I didn’t know if there were any bodies of water anyway. We don’t know where the ship crashed or what the surrounding area is really like. Even now it’s still vague. Debatable how far around the crash site should have been described at the start, but could have helped. Further details expanded as clones start exploring.
As another brief aside, it was questioned why Viego Norr was potentially on the wrong bridge.
“The port (left) tower was the starfighter command bridge, while the starboard (right) tower served as a standard helm and command bridge.”–Wookieepedia
wild_toa is incorrect as to which bridge the General was on. He was on the command bridge. Probably a simple error due to the image provided earlier and thinking of the ship in the wrong direction.
Now back to our regular programming.
Duke, Legacy, and Rook head for the armory. Buoy heads for the front, reports in that he’s nearing it. Quips, Bravebird, Wannabe, and Tesz all head to rescue the General, except for Boomstick. Who decides to meet up with Duke somehow teleports from outside the ship, by a bridge, and inside the ship’s armory.
Buoy makes it to the front, Saddle and Graphite not long after. With a brief discussion, Buoy informs Duke that Vulture Droids are coming at the front. He does not tell Duke of any clones aside from himself being at the front. Which makes this pretty awkward.
Duke doesn’t know Saddle is at the front. Why does he ask Saddle? He should be asking Buoy, the only one who reported his location and the droids in that moment.
Duke knows: Saddle (first), Legacy (second), Rook (met, name not given until much later, only learned due to Legacy asking), Buoy (fourth), Bravebird (five, informs of Quips, Boomstick, Tesz, and Wannabe). He knows Buoy is at the front, doesn’t know about Graphite nor his location at the front with Saddle (whom he also doesn’t know is up there). He knows the other group has disobeyed orders to rescue the General and are by the bridges.
Though back with the Vulture Droids, their positioning is unclear and their behavior is unusual.
Based on this post, the three Vultures sound like they’re returning from wherever they came from. Possibly ignoring the three clones, at the very least moving back out into their view. It’s possible the “doubling back” means they’re circling around the Venator, but it’s unclear.
With that said, I’m not entire certain how the other Vultures knew one of their own had died. It’s possible they heard the blaster fire or have something in them to notice when a squad mate is down. Seems a bit unlikely, but at least they’re staying together as they should…oh wait!
Briefly back with some of the others, Duke and friends leave the armory. They eventually make it into the hangars and then from the hangars they’re out…somewhere. Evidently 25 yards or more away from the front. Now this part is more directed at wild_toa, but to the GM more clarifications or corrections should have been given.
How does this happen? Where are you guys? How do you know the droids will be there? How far from the ship do you have to even run to get a shot at them? Who are you talking to? The buddies you left behind? Very confusing.
Wait wait wait. It survived? How? Even if barely caught, that’s still an explosion. If a Vulture’s wing is damaged it’s going down. How is this thing still flying?
I’m sorry, but why is it doing that? Its bro just got shot with a rocket. It should be helping it take on the attackers. Remember, they’re swarm fighters, they would stick together.
And, even if they didn’t for some reason, why would it continue going towards the front? Clearly, the attackers moved further down and probably aren’t at the front anymore. There’s no reason this droid would think to go this way, it’s plot contrivance.
But also, what? Where are we again? Are they at the front? Near the front? If this is the front, then the droids shouldn’t have split up at all. Clearly, all the attackers are right here and just shot at you. TheMOCingbird, you later said there’s a decent distance between them and Graphite, so what gives? Where is this?
Which makes this post all the more confusing.
For some reason, it came over here and just randomly started shooting. Somehow, neither Buoy or Saddle saw it coming over. Up until the rocket shot, as far as we knew, the vultures were still closer to the back of the ship. But they, like also maybe Duke’s group, are just at the front?
And what do you expect us to do with this post? Is the fire truly random? Why would I, or Keps, have our characters take a hit? Maybe our characters can’t tell if the Vulture sees them, but we as the players should know to better respond to the scene.
I wasn’t even going to respond to that post, but I did anyways hoping for clarity. Also to make it look like I wasn’t ignoring your game, since I responded to other ones.
But at this point, it is unacceptable. It is unclear where everything is, the enemies are not behaving as they would in canon (or rational thought at all), and it is unclear what sort of response you are wanting from us.
3 Likes
Hey ajtazt, firstly, I want to say thanks for taking the time to write your post. I know it would have been easier to just say I’m doing a bad job, or simply drop out, but the fact that you clearly put a lot of time and thought into this is really appreciated.
To start,
I think you’re right in saying that this ^ has a lot of problems. When I wrote about the sun, I didn’t mean to imply that all of the characters would be able to see the sun, just denote what time of day it was, but I can see how that caused confusion. Another problem is that the players hearing “groaning” implies there’s quite a few other survivors, when in reality there really aren’t. I definitely should have done a better job of both planning and explaining the exact state of the crash, which would have made starting areas a lot less confusing.
Again, this was just sloppy on my part. Having clones start in a selection of pre-set starting points would have helped a lot here, and I should have been more patient and thorough in planning the start. Truth be told (as is obvious with a lot of the problems you’ve pointed out) they got to the bridge because someone had to go to the bridge, and I figured if they were in the back of the hanger, it wouldn’t be too much of a stretch to have them be near the bridge. But I recognize that I shouldn’t be lying on stretching things like this, I should be planning them better.
I had meant to describe more about the crash site and the surrounding jungle area as the clones started exploring, but I got caught up in the start, and forgot to expand on this before stuff started happening.
I wasn’t too sure what to about this one, because while at the time I recognized that Boomstick getting to Duke so quickly was unrealistic, making GoodGuy just have Boomstick walk by himself for 3 or 4 posts seemed kind of boring for GoodGuy. This isn’t to say that I’m willing to throw out all reason in the service of keeping all the players happy, I’m just not sure where to draw that line between realism and an engaging game. In hindsight this problem probably could have been fixed if I had laid out the map better, that way GoodGuy as a player would have known Boomstick couldn’t have easily met up with Duke, and instead stay with the others. But even in this scenario that’s a little meta-gamey because Boomstick wouldn’t know the distance between him and Duke, so I’m not what would have been the ideal way to handle this.
I really thought that at some point Saddle had reported reaching the rendezvous point, but going back and checking, I think you’re right, and it doesn’t look like this ever happened. I didn’t properly check before posting, and that’s on me.
I purposely wanted to keep whether or not they had been spotted by the droids ambiguous, but I should have done a better job of explaining their actions. I meant for the droids to approach from the jungle (coming from the direction of the base, so I really should have better explained what direction that was), overshoot the Venator, and then split up to scan each third of the ship individually.
In my mind, the Vultures would have some sort of com/connection system for communication and knowing where each other are, so they would have been alerted of the droid’s destruction.
Again, I should have done a better job of explaining what the end of the hanger looked like, and the distances of everything. The tip of the ship is broken off, meaning there is a hole at the frond of the hangar leading to the debris of the ships tip, which would be the rendezvous point. I thought Duke knew Saddle was there, and therefore would have known the droids were there, which you pointed out to be incorrect because Saddle never mentioned he was at the rendezvous point.
At the time I had realized that a rocket should have probably taken the droid out, but was just afraid that the encounter would end too quickly, so instead I compromised even though I should have just let what should have happened, happen. I’m really sorry about this one, it’s not proper GMing.
I think it’s reasonable that the droid would still want to investigate the area where the other droid was destroyed, though looking back, I agree it’d be more likely that it’s attention would be diverted to the area of the most recent attack.
Again, I should have better thought out/explained the spacing.
I should have done a better job of laying out the droid’s attack pattern and the battlefield. As for a response, I was expecting Buoy and Saddle to take cover and return fire at the droid, but I can see how I put you in a pretty frustrating position with my lack of details. Furthermore, I’m starting to see that simply having enemies vaguely “fire” at you isn’t a good way to do combat, because then it puts the decision of if the shots hit or miss entirely on the players, when in reality I think I should be directing most of that, or at the very least giving better cues as to what is going on.
Again, thank you for taking the time to give a thoughtful response. I owe all of you an apology for not planning and explaining things well, and not attempting to fix it earlier when it became more apparent as a problem. I hope my response cleared up a few reasons behind the problems. I also made some bad decisions when it comes to Tesz and her crew, and I’m not yet sure how I’ll resolve them timing wise. I won’t be available tomorrow, but I will try and work on better explaining the current spacial situation, maybe with some sort of visual map. Taking this approach going forward may been longer waits between GM posts, but I think you’ve made it clear that’s a sacrifice worth making. If you all have any ideas as to how to help this, I’m all ears. Again, I’m really sorry about this guys, and I’ll try to do a better job of it going forward. Your patience and advice is really appreciated 
3 Likes
how come winger never got one of these
yerp, my bad. I know too much star wars crap to keep it straight all the time.
Also, Im glad you made that post, because reading through the older posts really made me realize we have a huge problem regarding locations
they are droids that are in some way connected to each other via some form of network or something
you have a fair point, I definitely could have clarified more. My assumption was that they were within 75 feet of the hole in the front of the hangar, and sprinting 100 feet or more isnt too unreasonable (under the assumption that theres no major overhanging wreckage and the droids arent too far off to the side or rear) as for the knowledge of droids being there, it was said over comms and relayed to Duke’s group by the CO present. The yelling was kinda just directed at anybody in the area and those behind him, but he wasnt particularly paying attention to whos all there, he just knew somebody was there. again, I definitely could have done that better, and Ill keep it in mind for the future.
I was actually going to ask about this sometime, why are the Vultures so durable here? the party has DC series blasters, which are known for being incredibly powerful, even by military standards, and Vultures have a hull thats less than a foot thick, with very little armor. why cant we just shoot at them when the get close and if we hit one, severely damage or even down it?
one of whats?
2 Likes
A couple of notes here:
The DC series boasts extraordinarily powerful weapons – depending on what continuity this is.
In Canon, the DC-15A rifle has poor accuracy with sustained fire and is unwieldy and heavy, although at close range and at maximum power it is capable of disabling light vehicles – looking at the Confederacy and Republic’s rosters, we’re probably talking STAPs, AT-RTs, speeder bikes, and probably landspeeders although neither side really employed them.
In Legends the weapon’s weight, firepower, and accuracy are described almost identically. The rifle at standard or high power could easily dispatch a B2 super battle droid or even a DSD1 dwarf spider droid.
The DC-15A carbine (I hate Canon for doing this) has no Canon description for its power capabilities, leaving our understanding of its firepower up to what’s displayed on-screen. Since the DC-15A rifle is nearly identical between Canon and Legends, it’s safe to assume the carbine is similar. Because the carbine lasts for 500 shots, and the carbine has no variable power settings, the DC-15S/A carbine likely has the same firepower as the DC-15A rifle at “low” power settings, which also enables 500 rounds. This is supported by the fact that the carbine is known to have less firepower than the rifle.
The DC-17 blaster pistol is noted for its extreme firepower in Legends and Canon alike, and in Legends the DC-17 straight up packs the same firepower as a DC-15 carbine. This enables a well-trained clone with ARC training to dual-wield two carbines, laying down impressive firepower on the battlefield.
Now, what about the weapons we have?
I went through the profiles for all the players. We all chose to carry a DC-15 carbine, a DC-17 pistol, or both. We do not have the stopping power to individually defeat a super battle droid in three or less shots, let alone a starfighter. The only way even a DC-15 carbine is going to take down a vulture droid is by aiming for the neck (preferably while stunning the droid with an ion grenade) or laying a very, very heavy volume of fire at the head. With the small number of clones we have, the latter option is not on the table, and our small arms simply cannot shoot down a droid starfighter. Rockets, of course, are a different story, and our party has them – and aside from the IED being rigged by Buoy, they’re the clones’ only chance of actually killing a vulture droid.
I was also going to go on a ramble about armor thickness, armor sloping, and how as a starfighter the vulture droid is obviously capable of surviving infantry antipersonnel weapons, but I think this post is long enough.
4 Likes
Also something I forgot to include, I don’t believe Boomstick knew where Duke and friends were either. I’d have to review again, but I don’t recall the Captain telling the other troops they were in the armory. The last message was that they were in the crew’s quarters and then heading towards the rendezvous point. So Boomstick should have appeared there if he was searching for the Captain, or, went to the front as previously told.
In which case, perhaps the course of action was to inform the player IC that he didn’t know Captain Duke’s current location and should ask. From there, Duke would tell him to head to the front and, if really persistent, then tell Boomstick their current location. Maybe they could have met up in the hangar inside as a compromise.
Which is fine. Even if the clones knew that, they didn’t have much choice and had to destroy the one. In the moment, they could at least have forgotten that potential detail until hearing the others coming. But the players could have at least maybe had a bit more detail as to why. Though it is a minor problem.
I figured it was due to plot and worry about fights being too easy. However, it is just the start of the game. Did you intend for it to be easy or hard, for at least one character to die already or something else? If this didn’t go as you wanted, that just means adjusting things for later encounters. Always adapt.
At least adapt in ways that aren’t nonsense. I’m a simulationist, one of the worst things you can do is fail to simulate the reality correctly.
Consider this a good word of encouragement. If your wording isn’t tight, I will abuse every opening given to me. The more vague you are, the more it’s left up into my hands, all the more I’ll take and rip it open to do whatever I please. Usually I’m nice enough that most won’t notice what I’ve done until all their characters have been thoroughly crushed.
So yes, definitely be more specific about where these shots are going.
Otherwise, looking forward to your next post. No further advice from me at the moment.
And I have many more, for Winger, MaximusPrimal, you, and every user who participates in these RPs. I usually resort to mercy and allow people a chance of redemption, to prove my early judgements wrong. So good luck to all when my patience finally runs out.
2 Likes
A bit of advice: making it clear that you’ve reached your wits’ end before you seriously critique people’s RPing is not a good look, especially if they’re open to advice and comment far before you reach your limit. Neither is clarifying that holding off on your judgement is offering a ‘chance of redemption’. If you’ve got some issue and a helpful solution for it, you’re hurting yourself if you don’t say it.
As for myself as an RPer, I am always looking for ways to improve and never partake in any of these RPs from a position of malice or ill intent. If you’ve got constructive critique for me, I’ll be happy to hear it.
1 Like
Running out of patience is not me coming to an end of wits, it’s the end to silence. And I wait, despite being able to discern how every single person will play by the first post, for further observations to disprove or confirm suspicions. Interfering too soon may ruin their development and the study.
Then I must add that patience is a weird way to spell observation period. But you do you.
I could be misinterpreting your tone, but …
It seems to me like you have a very, very specific, seemingly objective vision of how RPGs should be played. With accuracy, with tactics, with seriousness and competence. It’s clear enough, from the way you write most of your non-reactive RP posts.
But it seems unfair to assume that is the same thing that everyone else expects from the game, and to expect those standards from everyone playing.
In a different context, it would be called rules lawyering.
Has it crossed your mind that it’s fine for there to be a lack of continuity or context? Because the game is meant to be fun and not accurate? Because it’s not about everything making sense and being neatly squared away? Because it’s about a bunch of random acquaintances online doing their level best to have a good time while doing this weird thing where they try to combine one of the hardest creative endeavors there is - telling a story - with a game? A game.
This is a perfect example. GoodGuy wanted to insert Boomstick into the RPing, and he did so, breaking continuity for the sake of enjoying the game. Which is like … way more important?
Does it detract from the game in any meaningful way if it isn’t specified how Boomstick joined up with Duke and Legacy? Because to me, it seems like the answer is glaringly, overwhelmingly a “no”.
5 Likes
continuity, context, tactical accuracy, etc. are kind of massively important when trying to collaboratively write a story set in a war
3 Likes
listen
son
have you even read book of ramblings
1 Like
Which is true … and why I didn’t mention anything about ajtazt’s critique of the combat scenarios. The hangar situation was/is legitimately confusing to me. I mostly just made it up in my head and ran with it, as I suspect most people did … and there was very little disconnect, right? We were able to play off of our own varied compensations for the lack of context.
But tactical accuracy, at least in the terms I’m considering you to intend, is, to me, highly periphery if not irrelevant. It’s sci fi. Science fiction. Science fiction. Those who are aware of real-world tactic and strategy should be all means be allowed to RP in a way that reflects that, but it shouldn’t be expected in any way from those who don’t.
So what if it doesn’t make sense? I’ve said this so many time to so many people: it’s a role playing game. The minute you start to enforce an expectation of how things are supposed to be done is the minute it starts to become unfun.
3 Likes
No, and I mean, I get that, I don’t whatsoever expect anyone participating in this RP to have, for example, my standards of real-life military accuracy with my actual combat training. By “tactical accuracy” I’m mostly referring to technical/tactical aspects with relation to the Clone Wars as a setting.
*edit: for what it’s worth I’ve definitely been practicing “Clone Wars tactics” and not “real world tactics” in my writing so far. If you are strafed by an attack fighter patrol while climbing out of the wreckage of your beached carrier, and you follow my writings, I am not liable for damages.
3 Likes
*violent coughing
*looks at star wars wargame draft
hmm
Being serious though, if this is true, I definitely understand it, especially being someone who enjoys both RPs and wargames. Winger has a great point, this is supposed to be a fun experience, not exactly a game of tactics, however some of the looseness of it can be a slight problem for me at times (ex: Boomstick teleporting from outside to bridge to armory)
1 Like
if you think this is bad now wait til wannabe starts being extra racist
3 Likes