Why I am a follower of Sanok-Orde / Hypothesis about it

This argument is probably the most coherent and sensible case for Sanorde I’ve seen. However, it hinges on a premise that may or may not be relevant depending on information we simply don’t have:

This is an important point, and the Nuju analogy is pertinent, but depending on the limits of Psionics-based telekinesis and the amount of control Toa of Psionics have over this power, this may only impact Orde in very specific situations.

Let us consider a few situations. First, let’s imagine Orde is fighting one guy, and only that one guy, and he throws a small rock. With telekinesis, he can manually make it hit home no matter what his enemy does, but only if the following conditions apply:

  1. Orde can make the object move as fast as he needs to. If he can apply enough force with telekinesis to make anything fly at the speed of a bullet, the object is harder to dodge; but if he can only push with telekinesis with as much force as his own muscles, projectiles will move relatively slowly.
  2. Orde can change the object’s velocity with minimal effort. Objects don’t change their direction or magnitude of motion unless acted on first. Ergo, if Orde needs to put in more effort to manually make a projectile hit its mark, that’s going to impact how much the Sanok helps him.

In short, the question is: how much “physical” strength does his telekinesis have? Because if Nuju’s use of the Matatu is as good as telekinesis gets in the MU, then the Sanok still has its uses, but it might actually be stupidly OP on Toa of Psionics because. Y’know. :gregf:

This is the other important part of the equation: does the Sanok do this better than other masks? Because, ultimately, a lot of Kanohi are redundant to telekinesis in some way. (thanks greg!!!) A while back, I screenshotted BS01 and crossed out pretty much every Kanohi that would be redundant to Psionics-based powers (plus the masks Orde logistically couldn’t have, like the Makuta masks; I missed a couple Makuta masks by mistake). I apparently forgot the Huna, so pretend it’s crossed out.


Some of these are, again, indeterminate because we don’t know what you can bench with a Pakari vs. what telekinesis lets you do, but if we want to play it safe, you can just take whatever masks aren’t crossed out here. And, given that he apparently has a mace (when did Greg say this?), we may find it more useful to think about what Kanohi work with that rather than trying to work around his element.

A Sanok does, in fact, make sense with a mace. Normally, because of their weight distribution, maces don’t make great throwing weapons compared to axes or knives (but thrown maces WERE a thing in some cases, i.e. Byzantine military tactics), but a Sanok plus an extra telekinetic push would make Orde’s mace potentially devastating, and he can use his element to return it to him a la Mjolnir. However, while his mace is thrown, Orde is unarmed, which leaves him vulnerable for the reasons you mention about Psionics’s combat potential.

There are, however, other options that don’t come with this weakness.

  • The Kualsi would allow Orde to wind up for a swing before having to actually get near his target, then teleport and complete the attack to catch the enemy by surprise. Even if the enemy’s expecting it, he can feint to fake them out and then teleport.
  • The Faxon could give him relevant Rahi powers that his element doesn’t cover. The mask is just downright OP.
  • Maces are dangerous in part because they can concentrate a lot of force over a small area of impact. With the Pehkui, Orde can turn this up to 11.
  • The Mask of Emulation can compensate for his lack of physical power against stronger foes. The Calix can offer something similar, but Varian already has one, so it’d be redundant for him to have one.
  • The Zatth has a question mark on it in my screenshot because I’m not sure if Orde can reach out and just make any nearby Rahi show up to the party. That said, it doesn’t enable Rahi control, but Psionics would in many cases.
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Confirmed by accident via email with Greg regarding whether they carry tools at all

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Don’t.

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This quote suggests that there are strength limits to the Mask of Telekinesis, but it is unclear what those limits are, or if they apply to a Toa of Psionics’s telekinetic ability:


I also have another synergy idea: does the Sanok work on telekinetic “throwing”?

For example, instead of physically throwing something at an enemy, could Orde throw it telekinetically and still apply the Sanok’s power?

Or, if he uses his telekinesis to redirect a projectile in motion, could the Sanok’s power be applied to ensure that the redirect is accurate?

This is an awesome visual, and the reference would be even better if Chiara helped out with her powers.

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If it does, then that opens up new possibilities because Orde can grab something with telekinesis and then fling it without ever having to go near it, which (provided telekinesis doesn’t have the absurd potential I mentioned before) offers new applications for the Sanok.

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I debated with myself whether I wanted to do this. I determined that it’s for the good of humanity that I do so.

Typically speaking, a mask’s duration and limit are based in the user’s concentration/willpower. An example would be the length of time a Tryna user can reanimate a body, and most likely also the number of bodies that can be reanimated at a time. There are a few hard limits, such as the size tied to a Pehkui/Mask of Growth or the strength/speed boost of a Pakari/Kiril.

Greg has not stated whether the Great Kanohi Matatu actually has a fixed weight: only that the Noble Matatu would have a fixed weight and that it would be less than what is possible with the Great version. (Sources 1 and 2 here)

Based on inference, it’s entirely possible that the Matatu’s weight limit is based in the user’s concentration and/or willpower, and a Toa of Psionics likely has greater capabilities than the mask would afford a user.

Regarding the physical combat capability of a Toa of Psionics, I think they’re not to be underestimated. With Psionics, you could overwhelm an opponent’s mind, put them to sleep or induce a state of delirium, cause seizures, telekinetically parry incoming ranged and melee attacks and even redirect an incoming weapon back to its sender. A Ce-Toa can completely mask herself from all five senses and outright incapacitate an opponent with a mental blast at the speed of her thoughts. She can suppress memories, trap an opponent in a vision or illusion that feels real in every possible way, and she can overwhelm their mind to hypnotize or mind control them into carrying out her commands. It’s true that she can’t summon a giant rock and kick it at people, but she can arguably end a fight without any weapons at all.
This isn’t to invalidate the idea that a Sanok could augment her abilities, but rather to demonstrate that a Ce-Toa is more than capable of holding her own in a fight.

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With the exception of the telekinetic redirection/reflection, those methods aren’t really “physical combat” so much as they are avoiding physical combat.

Of course, you’re definitely right that those methods are more than enough to end pretty much any fight, and that’s what really counts, but they don’t really dispel the notion that Toa of Psionics are generally weaker specifically in the physical portion of combat.

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Speaking entirely seriously, what’s the difference? The intent behind any fight is to win it while avoiding blows with your name on them. If you can telekinetically punch a dude with force far greater than any physical blow is capable, and you can telekinetically redirect his bullets away from you, you have physically won the fight. As far as I can tell, that’s just as physical as a Toa of Fire spraying flame at an opponent or a Toa of Air using the wind to knock aside a projectile.

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Yeah, I agree with you on that. I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying.

I agree that telekinetic deflection/reflection is a great physical combat technique; it was all the other methods (hiding, creating illusions, etc.) that are moreso about avoiding physicality than assisting with it.

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Thank you for interesting opinion and comments! :blush: :blush: :revolving_hearts: :revolving_hearts:
So I reply each topic, friends!

Thank you @SirKeksalot !! :revolving_hearts: :revolving_hearts:

This is a very accurate point. :relieved: Sure, there could be a power difference between Psi-Telekinesis and matatu’s.

However, first of all, you seems that Orde is thinking about using Telekinesis and Sanok together, but this is not what I thought - yes, of course it’s a good combo. It may makes fantastic example usage. But I see Sanok as “a completely different power than his Psionic”.
Please don’t bepulled by the impression of the fact that “moving an object with invisible force”.
It’s similar “Virtually elemental boost”(just like that Gali has excellent vital capacity, but with Kaukau she gets more GREAT underwater activity time than other water Toa), but No: Sanok is not related to telekinesis.

So, of course, Orde can also “throw with his own hands” to get the full power of Sanok-the power of an absolute hit sniper - As long as you “aim”, it’s a magic bullet that will always hit your enemy at the end, no matter what wall or cliff you hit and diffusely reflect, like Hewkii did for Vezok.

In other words, Sanok is a "mask that can make your attacks absolutely hit."
Every attack you make, whether at a distance or at a short distance, is not wasted, and every time you attack, it semi-automatically determines that your enemy will be damaged. This is what’s important.

Plus, in my opinion, Ce-Toa’s Telekinesis is probably at or above the same power level as Matatu can deliver.
The reason is that I got an answer like this in Ask greg before.

This quote is about Suletu, not Matatu, but I thought it could probably be interpreted as an example of a mask contained in Elemental powers called “Psionics”.
And here Greg responds like this.

Reading this response suggests that a mask with a portion of Psionics power (in this case Suletu) will not reach the entire area of The Elemental Power, which is classified as “Psionics”.
However, you may think that this alone is “questionable!” Therefore, I would like to quote one more thing.

In this answer, Greg states that “Mask of Psionics” is upward compatible with “masks related to psionics” such as Suletu. (His addendum is a “warning about how to use” after affirming that fact.)

From these replies, I interpreted "Ce-Toa’s Elemental’s maximum power are never lower than the output of Suletu or Matatu."

Addendum:
(The “example of Psionics Element” are Ce-Toa-Disk / Mask of Psionics instead of Ce-Toa in those, However, this quote proves that the “output difference problem” that may occur there is not a concern.)

But even with all these citations, if Ce-Toa’s telekinesis “physical” is lower than Matatu, Sanok’s usefulness remains the same: remember. Sanok is not a Psionics related mask.

Regardless of the output of telekinesis, it works well with Sanok alone. Performance does not depend on User’s Psionic-elemental and is stable.
Also, Greg once made a very interesting response. This:

From this answer, it can be confirmed that Sanok has the effect of “adding kinetic energy that should normally decline steadily to the thrown object and increasing the power when hitting the target”.
This is extremely effective for the purpose of “replenishing physical attack power”.

…But, of course, other masks like the one you illustrated are also attractive enough. :wink:
I’m especially interested in the Mask of Emulation you illustrated as a second choice if Sanok-Orde is rejected!
This was an idea I didn’t have when I wrote this Topic!
(Of course, there is also my secret wish that we can finally get to know the design of the MoE’s front :wink:)


Thank you for Addendum, @Keplers !! :revolving_hearts: :revolving_hearts:

Yes, I know it! Ce-Toa are never “easy to beat” beings! :wink:
However, Ta-Toa, which can manipulate ultra-high temperatures and burn everything, is vulnerable to the cold.
In addition, Po-Toa, which has the strongest strength of 6Element, reduces their advantages in water (although Mahli Hewkii has adapted to some extent).
The “advantages” and “weaknesses” of each attribute are two sides of the same coin, so I thought Ce-Toa’s wakness was there.

This is also correct. :wink:
In the sense of “defeating the enemy”, both flames and Psionics are fully possible, which is why Ce-Toa is by no means a “weak Toa”.
(Rather, if I am a Makuta or Skakdi, and I must to fight with Toa, Ce-Toa is one of the Toa I don’t want to fight the most… :rofl:)

But I forgot to write one important thing in the text of Topic:
I also expected to Sanok to be a "fail-safe means of attack when the power effects of Psionics didn’t work for some reason."
What I want to say is, that beings of MU’s/Magna’s are sometimes have resistance to Psionics-related powers.
First, Ce-Matorans has mind shielding, and the Order that studied them, has it for all members as well.
(I think there were other people with Anti-Psionic power, but for now, these are the only ones I can remember. :sweat_smile:)

My thoughts may be “too worried,” but given that Orde is Toa, who survived the long history of MU’s birth and collapse, I thought that he appropriate to be a big veteran who understands the strengths and weaknesses of his Element, so I came up with this idea. :relieved:


Thanks again @TheJerminator !! :revolving_hearts: :revolving_hearts:

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I don’t think a lot of these are really redundant, so much as “able to do something Psionics does, but better”.

For example, the Volitak. You could use Psionics to hide your presence from nearby minds, but there are several drawbacks to this: you’d have to do it to every person who could see/hear you individually, it wouldn’t work on machines like the Vahki, it wouldn’t affect someone who is mentally shielded. The only drawback of the Volitak is that it won’t fool someone with an Elda/Rode. Same thing applies to the Huna and Mahiki.

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I love your research and logic! (Not to mention the mace design)
Keep up the good work :smiley:

(Also, could you make an Orde design with less system? Because I’d love your mace designed to win the competition, and chances are the more system the moc has, the less likely it will be accepted)

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I don’t think the use of System matters nearly as much as the final result, and the final result looks really good. I personally don’t care if the greebly bits are from System parts or Bionicle parts as long as it looks good.

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Thank you @Willess12 !! :revolving_hearts: :revolving_hearts:
Sure, Volitak and Huna can’t fool machines. After all, I think it is important to “think about how to use” the mask. :wink: :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

Thank you @Fighter101 !! :revolving_hearts: :revolving_hearts:
I’m so glad you liked my hypothesis and MOC design! :heart_eyes:

About Orde's design

And I’m so glad if you’re have a time and read this topic!(MOC page)
Toa Orde, the First man (ver.Bu / MOC for canon contest)

His armor design is the part I built with a great deal of attention to “such an appearance” rather than the pros and cons of using the system.
This is a bit off the topic of Topic, but I put a part of my soul into this Orde for this event, BIONICLE’s Canon Contest:which I’ve been dreaming about for almost all of my life.

I move forward, believing that this design will be accepted by many. If not, it’s a betrayal to all those who “like” this MOC until this moment.

I’m so glad if you understand my designing concept! :wink:

Thank you @TheJerminator !! :revolving_hearts: :revolving_hearts:
I’m really glad you think so! I am getting a lot of help from your activities and opinions… :relieved: :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

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The amount of system/bionicle doesn’t affect acceptance in the contest, but it does make a difference for some voters.

However, Bukkey’s Orde is beyond beautiful in both construction and aesthetic, and it’s my personal hope that some people vote for those over set-accuracy

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I have put a ton of thought into how different powers work, what different powers can do that others can’t, what powers are simply more specialized to a specific task, etc. That bit about the Huna/Volitak just now is just the tip of the iceberg.

Regarding the Sanok for a Toa of Psionics:

I, personally, am ambivalent. I’m not big on accuracy as a power – it’s a good power to have, of course, but it’s not really flashy, like making yourself 60 feet tall, or fascinating, like manipulating the hand of fate. It’s just ‘you can throw stuff better’.

Regarding the look of the mask, I don’t really care much either. I actually don’t like viewing the ridges of the mask as a brain, because the imagery of a Bionicle character with an exposed brain is just downright creepy, so to me, there’s no particular draw to using it for Orde; but on the other hand, I don’t think it’s that ugly either.

But that’s not what we’re here to talk about, is it? We’re here to talk about whether a Toa of Psionics would wear a Sanok, and if it’s complimentary to their powers or redundant to their powers. Now that is where I have something to say.

So, is Psionics redundant? I’m going to go with no, for a few reasons:

  1. First off, the obvious: mask power and elemental power are seperate things. A Toa can run out of elemental power and still be able to use their mask, and though we’ve only seen overuse of a mask power one time in the story (Hewkii Mahri using the Garai to lift the whole freakin’ Coliseum), I personally believe the reverse is true too: if someone had revived Hewkii right after he passed out, he probably wouldn’t have been able to use his mask power, but he might have been able to use his elemental power just fine.
    (side note: gravity is OP, and is likely way stronger than normal telekinesis, so I don’t think a Garai would be redundant either)
  2. The mask is more accurate than even telekinesis would be. Let’s talk about that scene where Hewkii had to hit Hakann and Thok simultaneously with a Zamor. Could he have pulled that off with a Matatu? Maybe, but there’s several factors to consider: it would likely be a lot slower, giving them tome to dodge, harder to hit both of them at the same time, and there’s no indication if Zamor spheres work if you just hit them against someone manually. Oh, and it actually wouldn’t have worked anyway, because Hewkii got knocked out before the zamor hit.
  3. It doesn’t require concentration. In Orde-r (see what I did there) to hit someone with a rock with telekinesis, he has to focus on the rock until it hits its target. With the Sanok, he just has to throw.
  4. It can be used to aim elemental powers. Now this one’s dicey – obviously, this quote is refering to aiming a blast of your element, such as a Toa of Fire shooting a blast of Fire at someone/something (I can think of two instances where Vakama could have used this, and they’re both in Time Trap). Whether it would work for Telekinesis is different. It might also allow Orde to aim mental blasts at a foe, a la Hakann, but there’s no evidence for this.
    So could Orde use the power with his telekinesis to throw something? I have to say… Well no but actually yes. I don’t think he would be able to, say, throw something at an enemy, then adjust the projectile to hit them if they move out of the way. It might still hit, but once telekinesis is applied to the projectile, it stops being under the affect of the Sanok, since the Sanok only affects how you throw it. Now, whether he could fling an item with telekinesis is another matter. The fact that telekinesis can aim elemental powers suggests that yes, he can.

So onto point 2: is it synergistic with Psionics?

I kinda already touched on this earlier: if it allows him to fling something telekinetically and hit a target, then yes, but is there anything else?

What about Ghid’s suggestion, that he fling his hammer and then Thor it back to him? I think this would be more difficult than you might assume. He can’t apply telekinesis to it until after it hits, or he loses the power of the Sanok. So he’d have to fling it, have it hit, and then grab it with telekinesis and pull it back. He could probably still pull it off, but not as easily as Thor. Granted, however, he has had years to practice.

Does it make up for Psionics’ lack of physical capability? Sorta, yeah. Like I said at the beginning, throwing a rock isn’t as flashy as shooting fire from your palms, but the Sanok makes it comparably effective. Considering he uses a mace – a blunt, handheld weapon – I think a Pakari would also be good.

Keks listed a Pakari as one of the masks that would be redundant with telekinesis, but I don’t think it is. I think this is one case where the Pakari is simply more efficient at what it does. Plus, it has the added benefit of increasing the user’s endurance.

speaking of Kek's post, would some of these masks actually be redundant?
  • The Kakama: we’ve seen how fast a Matatu can lift a Toa, and we’ve seen how fast a Kakama can go. They’re not remotely comparable.
  • The Rode: while a Psionics user can also detect lies, they can’t see through illusions like the Rode can.
  • The Garai: gravity is way stronger than telekinesis, though also more limited in what it’s made for.
  • The Mask of Charisma: sure, you can mind-control someone. Until you stop focusing on them, and they go back to how they were. The mask of Charisma can permanently change someone into an ally.
  • The Kadin: flying under your own power is likely far more controllable than lifting yourself with Telekinesis, though it does have a steeper learning curve, as we saw with Nuparu Inika. Plus, with a Kadin, you can fly and use your elemental power for stuff at the same time.

Anyway, this has been my power talk.

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Well, yeah. But he doesn’t really need to worry about it missing and taking longer to hit something with the Sanok.

I mean, Thor is also really stupidly overpowered. It was just the closest comparison that could exist.

Greatest advantage of a Sanok imo is being able to throw a punch from however far of a distance and have it collide with perfect accuracy - if it’s spiked, that’s even better.
Depending on how it’s thrown, it could be far greater than a punch, if leverage and angle is factored in

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I don’t think mental blasts from a Toa of Psionics are a physical thing that can be aimed or dodged. Wouldn’t Orde just think about it and it happens?

This is true, but it begs the question: can the Sanok be reapplied when redirecting it? Could the mask be used again to ensure that the redirect is accurate?

Personally, I don’t see why it couldn’t.

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Oh yeah, it’s a good comparison, that’s why I used it myself.

It depends upon how it works. Does he just focus on a mind, or can he send out a “psionic blast” that will headache whomever it hits? The fact that Toa of Psionics don’t need tools to use their power suggests the former, but if the latter is possible, then the Sanok could allow him to effectively “shoot” mental blasts. It would likely be quicker than having to focus in on a particular mind

It’s a very big maybe, I just wanted to throw it out there.

So here’s a thought: the fact that the mask allows you to aim ranged weapons suggests that it would work.

Here’s my thought process: if you’re using telekinesis to “throw” something, then you’re not throwing it yourself. You’re using telekinetic energy to throw it. It’s comparable to if Hewkii tried to make a stone hand pop up, pick up a sword, and throw it.

Then it hit me: using a weapon is basically the same thing. When Hewkii fired his Zamor shot, he wasn’t “throwing” the sphere – he was using the Launcher to throw the sphere. So that means the Sanok also works through something you’re manipulating. Accuracy with shooting a gun is similar to, but not the same as, accuracy in throwing something. So throwing something with telekinesis using the Sanok should work.

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Nice elaboration! I think we need more use of the Inika masks and The Sanok seems a good choice. Too bad they do not connect in a traditional way. Anyone got any ideas for connecting them to Metru heads?

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